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09-21-2012, 02:34 PM   #301
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Opposite. I think we should be focused on *real products* that we the customer have actually *asked for* and not more roadmaps. Certainly even a prototype under glass would've gone a long way.

Are you excited about Photokina's releases? Was the Pentax customerbase clamoring for a Q2, telescope lens or 360 spycam?

I was very excited about the K5....in 2010. SAFOX XXXVIIII doesn't get me excited either, nor does pulling out a piece of glass in front of the sensor. I know these are merely moves to buy Ricoh more time which they obviously still need.

and again we anxiously await.

09-21-2012, 02:53 PM   #302
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"We the customer"? Who are those, were you elected to represent them?
Better AF was definitely asked, over and over again, by a different "we the customer" group, which won't be satisfied by an AF-module prototype under glass

I'm reasonably satisfied by the current releases; because of the time constraints, the need to fix things broken by Hoya or whatever I believe that having the only stabilized DMF solution, or the first long P-K lens in 15 years is not that bad.
09-21-2012, 03:13 PM - 1 Like   #303
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Sigh. once again Kunzite you've caught me. I'm secretely the one person behind all these FF threads since time immemorial. I also personally took down all the threads asking for telescopes, compact cameras that don't fit in pant pockets and fancy 360 yoyos...

The latest SAFOX doesn't fix most of the AF problems I hear about Pentax btw. Namely the number and size of AF points.

I understand the challenges Pentax has (that the other companies don't), but continuing to take half steps is no way to catch up (much less win)

Last edited by illdefined; 09-21-2012 at 03:31 PM.
09-21-2012, 03:38 PM   #304
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Yup, I thought that was you.
By the way, few noisy people are not "we the customer", even though some of they would actually buy a Pentax FF.

The latest SAFOX doesn't solve everything, indeed; yet a 51-point AF system is useless if not accurate even in not-so-good light, so IMHO Pentax have their priorities right.

And what are the alternatives? Launch nothing (just throw some prototype under display)? Postpone their plans just to improve "Hoya's pipeline" products?

09-21-2012, 04:44 PM   #305
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Yup, I thought that was you.
By the way, few noisy people are not "we the customer", even though some of they would actually buy a Pentax FF.

The latest SAFOX doesn't solve everything, indeed; yet a 51-point AF system is useless if not accurate even in not-so-good light, so IMHO Pentax have their priorities right.

And what are the alternatives? Launch nothing (just throw some prototype under display)? Postpone their plans just to improve "Hoya's pipeline" products?
Isn't there a large, longstanding petition floating around somewhere? by the way, do you feel being the last DSLR maker left to NOT have an FF camera is a consumer confidence boosting sign of expertise and leadership in the SLR format?

frankly I wonder if Pentax should've skipped Photokina this year altogether if they weren't ready, with a big wink and a promise to be at CP+ (only couple months away) instead.

I honestly think coming to PhotoKina amidst the big FF announcements this year and showing what little they did hurt them considerably more than it helped them. at the very least, they should've stayed more low profile still and only shown upcoming technology demos to let the public know that ambitious things are on the close horizon instead of retreading old product. when handled correctly, mystery goes a much longer way than desperate sounding signs of 'wait, us too!!! look at us, we're still here!'...um, kinda.

In lieu of a new camera that can really challenge the big two, I'd say the best thing Pentax could do is announce WR versions of all their current DA lenses. That would mean something real to the market.

Last edited by illdefined; 09-21-2012 at 10:47 PM.
09-21-2012, 11:18 PM   #306
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
Sigh. once again Kunzite you've caught me. I'm secretely the one person behind all these FF threads since time immemorial. I also personally took down all the threads asking for telescopes, compact cameras that don't fit in pant pockets and fancy 360 yoyos...

The latest SAFOX doesn't fix most of the AF problems I hear about Pentax btw. Namely the number and size of AF points.

I understand the challenges Pentax has (that the other companies don't), but continuing to take half steps is no way to catch up (much less win)
the biggest complaints about the previous AF system is the spped and accuracy in low light, not the number of AF points
09-22-2012, 12:05 AM   #307
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illdefined:
How large? And how many petitioners would put the money where their mouths are? (no offence to anyone involved, but I have a feeling many are/were expecting it to be much cheaper than it can be).
I'm not really willing to buy a FF camera, even a K-5 with a better AF would do the job. Sounds familiar, right?

To skip Photokina? Are you serious? What kind of statement would they make with that? "We can't be bothered to participate on the major European photographic fair"? "Customers what to see our products? Who cares!"? "We're worse than Hoya, at least they would go to Photokina"? "We're doomed"? Honestly, that's a very, very bad idea.
And again, you're ignoring real products, which were shown and launched there.

By the way, the D300s must have hurt Nikon a lot, right? Right?
09-22-2012, 05:31 AM   #308
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QuoteOriginally posted by Smeggypants Quote
the biggest complaints about the previous AF system is the spped and accuracy in low light, not the number of AF points
My biggest complaint is not the speed or the accuracy, but the size of the sensor.

09-22-2012, 06:13 AM   #309
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
illdefined:
How large? And how many petitioners would put the money where their mouths are? (no offence to anyone involved, but I have a feeling many are/were expecting it to be much cheaper than it can be).
I'm not really willing to buy a FF camera, even a K-5 with a better AF would do the job. Sounds familiar, right?

To skip Photokina? Are you serious? What kind of statement would they make with that? "We can't be bothered to participate on the major European photographic fair"? "Customers what to see our products? Who cares!"? "We're worse than Hoya, at least they would go to Photokina"? "We're doomed"? Honestly, that's a very, very bad idea.
And again, you're ignoring real products, which were shown and launched there.

By the way, the D300s must have hurt Nikon a lot, right? Right?
I'm not going to try and convince you that people want FF in their SLRs (do you really read this site?) the film/sensor size the format was intended for. I guess Nikon and Canon made a big mistake at PhotoKina this year by introducing cheaper FF, I'm sure they'll do very poorly....

You would barely know Pentax was even at PhotoKina this year if you went to DPreview.com or other big photography site. There were no K5II previews sent out for them to splash on their big show coverage pages or anything. Just a press release. To say Pentax's product launches this year were overshadowed by the FF announcements is an understatement. They were completely drowned out.

The D300s? Are you serious? Adding VIDEO to their benchmark high-end camera in direct response to their competition made perfect sense in 2008. Responding to 24mp FF by re-releasing 16mp APS-C and AF that still won't be competitive in 2012 does not. Stop living in the past.

If anything, the K5II could be seen as an admission that the K5 was flawed in someway and this was a "fix". They could've waited for an actually new product launch to introduce their new AF, if it's release was close.....which this half move now makes it seem like it's not.

Last edited by illdefined; 09-22-2012 at 06:45 AM.
09-22-2012, 01:29 PM   #310
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That's a strawman, I never said Canikon's "cheap" FFs are a mistake. That's far off from my actual words, which btw you quoted... I guess I was hitting a nerve

I was at Photokina, and I knew they were there; in fact their presence was IMHO much better than 2 years before and, if my memory serves me right, more people were visiting.
Besides, your "solution" is a complete absence; no announcement, no press release, nothing. How is that better?

Yes, I'm serious with the D300s; but I expected you would claim Nikon can do it, yet Pentax can't.
And try making sense, please; the K-5 II obviously is not a response to the 24MP FFs; neither are the new lenses. Pentax can do other things than just respond to the newest Canikon fad.

If anything, the D300 was flawed so Nikon "fixed" it. They could've waited for the D400, but wait, no news about that one...
09-22-2012, 02:29 PM   #311
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That's a strawman, I never said Canikon's "cheap" FFs are a mistake. That's far off from my actual words, which btw you quoted... I guess I was hitting a nerve

I was at Photokina, and I knew they were there; in fact their presence was IMHO much better than 2 years before and, if my memory serves me right, more people were visiting.
Besides, your "solution" is a complete absence; no announcement, no press release, nothing. How is that better?

Yes, I'm serious with the D300s; but I expected you would claim Nikon can do it, yet Pentax can't.
And try making sense, please; the K-5 II obviously is not a response to the 24MP FFs; neither are the new lenses. Pentax can do other things than just respond to the newest Canikon fad.

If anything, the D300 was flawed so Nikon "fixed" it. They could've waited for the D400, but wait, no news about that one...
I see. you can take my words out of context and have fun with them but I can't.

better turnout than two years ago because of what? the new AF module? the Q2? maybe just more people attended the show this year. and my solutuon wasn't 'nothing', maybe you should start quoting my words. I said they should announce a promise for a big show at CP+ a few months away, stating their circumstances and delivering big. or at least biggER.

Stop playing around. Video and "lower light AF" are worlds apart. Video was just making its way to DSLRs and it was a vital element Nikon was missing at its high-end. An extra roman numeral in SAFOX doesn't even begin to measure as a major feature, sorry. No, there was no D400 because Nikon merged the D90 and D300 lines into the D7000. That's where APS-C will end up, strictly as an entry-level to enthusiast format.

Pentax doesn't have to compete with the other two DSLR makers left? That's a sound business strategy. Next time you should leave the Pentax booth and take a good look at the real world around you.
09-22-2012, 02:43 PM   #312
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A FF would be unnecessary if Pentax actually had a highly advanced and full line up of APS-C DSLRs but they don't. However a FF camera would not in itself be a panacea.
09-22-2012, 02:56 PM   #313
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*I* am doing that?

Better presence, as in:
- bigger stand
- more products to show (including sports optics)
- prints, they even had a large format Ricoh printer next to the 645D stand
I was there both editions, so I sort of know what I'm talking about. How about you?

Your solution was a complete absence:
QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
frankly I wonder if Pentax should've skipped Photokina this year altogether if they weren't ready, with a big wink and a promise to be at CP+ (only couple months away) instead.
Yet that would hurt them a lot; so it's unthinkable. Why does most whiners have only such "solutions", I wonder...

FYI, AF is even more important than video; it was so for a while. Well, unless you're Leica, Zeiss or dirt cheap (Samyang). The comparison stands.

And how else could you end, than with another strawman. Of course they're preparing to compete, properly; I never claimed otherwise. Yet the K-5 II is not a response to the 24MP FFs... and those 24 MP FFs are not a response for the K-5 II
09-22-2012, 03:19 PM   #314
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Kunzite, please keep reading that quote you just put up. in spite of your emphasis, I clearly state they should make a promise to be at the next show. not by telepathy, but by press release as companies tend to do.

Unless you're buying all of Pentax's new product I don't see how their booth attendance over last time equates into additional sales. I won't even ask how the competitors booths were.

Comparing the ability for video with lower light AF? fine. definitely deserved a whole new camera. moving on.

So you admit Pentax doesn't have a response for their competitors FF cameras. I'd say that a problem, hence this thread. do you really think the K-5II stands alone at APS-C? The D7000 or 7D can't possibly compare?

I'd ask what flavor the kool-aid is, but I've really stopped caring.
09-22-2012, 03:37 PM   #315
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
*I* am doing that?

Better presence, as in:
- bigger stand
- more products to show (including sports optics)
- prints, they even had a large format Ricoh printer next to the 645D stand
I was there both editions, so I sort of know what I'm talking about. How about you?

Your solution was a complete absence:

Yet that would hurt them a lot; so it's unthinkable. Why does most whiners have only such "solutions", I wonder...

FYI, AF is even more important than video; it was so for a while. Well, unless you're Leica, Zeiss or dirt cheap (Samyang). The comparison stands.

And how else could you end, than with another strawman. Of course they're preparing to compete, properly; I never claimed otherwise. Yet the K-5 II is not a response to the 24MP FFs... and those 24 MP FFs are not a response for the K-5 II
Why is whining about whiners different from whining about cameras? Do whiners come in different flavours, perhaps with a tasty chocolate flake where their brain used to be? Me, I'm a whinee so not in the game.

In my experience, the clue is in the name with Trade Fairs. They're about business not about the public who are often viewed (politely) as an infernal nuisance. Trade Fairs are about renewing and refreshing contacts, meeting new prospects, sellling your products, sorting things out and doing deals with your distributors and partners, etc. Announcements and announcements about announcements tend to get overtaken and drowned out by the next set of announcements within about five minutes. By the end of the fair, you are utterly exhausted and hope your notes will make up for your by now shattered memory. The real work lies in the execution over the following months. Pentax can say whatever they like so far as I am concerned, because being a whinee I don't really mind. What matters is what they deliver, execution again.

In any case, the way to trump announcements is well understood by a few people. They simply put the camera in your hand.
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