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09-15-2012, 04:00 PM   #151
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I look forward to Z1sD announcement on monday.

09-15-2012, 04:05 PM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
With the D800, you can use roughly one stop faster ISO than with the K-5 (according to DxO, S/NR is a little more than one step better, DR a little less) - so in the end you can use the same shutter speed with the same DoF after all
Yes, but then you start to erode the advantage of the larger format; the reason for buying it in the first place. People tend to use their cameras to their best advantage. No one buy a D800 in order to make it equivalent to a K-5. If you have great landscape in front of you, both the D800 and the K-5 photographer will use the slowest ISO setting to maximize image quality. When having enough DOF for your landscape you will shoot at one stop longer shutterspeed on FF. If you are shooting a sports event with K-5 and you need F:4 to get enough DOF and 1/250s to stop the action, at say 800ISO, you need to set the FF camera to F:5.6 and will have no choice but to use 1600ISO to get the same image (ie freeze action). There is no free FF lunch...

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 09-15-2012 at 04:11 PM.
09-15-2012, 04:20 PM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
Don't forget the larger FF sensor area ostensibly gives greater ISO ability and dynamic range, two major factors in image quality other than narrow DOF. This allows use of slower (and cheaper) glass than a smaller sensor would in low or interior light. not to mention higher shutter speeds.
The dynamic range is debatable. The rest is inconsequent. You will get higher shutterspeed by increasing ISO but it is nullified by the fact that have to use a smaller aperture. Arguing that being able to increase ISO for thereby getting faster shutter speed for the same DOF without seing that getting more DOF at the same numerical aperture is exactly the same give misleading impression.
09-15-2012, 04:32 PM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The dynamic range is debatable. The rest is inconsequent. You will get higher shutterspeed by increasing ISO but it is nullified by the fact that have to use a smaller aperture. Arguing that being able to increase ISO for thereby getting faster shutter speed for the same DOF without seing that getting more DOF at the same numerical aperture is exactly the same give misleading impression.
Tell that to sports or action photographers who like some object isolation along with super-fast shutter speeds. (Same could be said for some kinds of street photography). There's a reason pros like the format, it's not just because they like big and heavy things.

It goes both ways, if DOF was the primary concern, than there are plenty of quality smaller sensor options as well.


Last edited by illdefined; 09-15-2012 at 04:40 PM.
09-15-2012, 04:57 PM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
That's true, and the D600 is an important step in getting FF cameras to a more reasonable size. However, $2,100 is still a lot of money for a camera, particularly when very capable APS-C and m43 cameras can be bought for a third to a quarter that price.
Indeed.



QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
I find this equivalency argument to be specious on a number of levels. Most people do not think of equivalency in terms of DOF, but only in FOV and aperture. For most photographers, the Panasonic 12-35/2.8 is "equivalent" to the Canikon 24-70/2.8s, even though there's more than two stops difference in DOF.
'Most people' are wrong.


QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Furthermore, even when lenses are "equivalent" in DOF and FOV, this does not mean they're equivalent in quality. The Nikon 24-85 may be (roughly) equivalent to the DA* 16-50/2.8, but are these lenses really "equivalent" in terms of the images they produce?
The bokeh, contrast, etc., depend on the lens design. In terms of resolution (not everything by any means), the D600 will be roughly 1.5x better. I'd hope that Nikon trade off some of that 'extra' resolution to make sure the other lens characteristics are better, but I can't say. I just hope Pentax gets the tradeoff correct, and I'm confident they will, because they rarely seem to go after test-chart wins.

For the record I'm not that enamored with the DA* 16-50, so you'd get further with me by arguing with a different lens.



QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
But even if they were equivalent, so what? Why would anyone move to FF for equivalency? Isn't FF supposed to be "better"? Isn't that the whole point of FF, the better IQ? I wouldn't buy a $2,000+ camera only to skimp on the glass.
Neither would I. But at some point it becomes cheaper, for a given IQ, to go FF. Right now it seems like that kit price is ~$3k.

Let's say you want a portrait camera. Add in some lens stuff from above... you're far better off, IMO, to go with the D600+85mm f/1.8 than the K-5 II + DA* 55. And I even like the DA* 55.

Cost more? Sure. Better system? Nikon.

QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
I don't do narrow DOF stuff at normal or wide angle FOVs, so the advantage that FF has in that respect is irrelevant to me (as it is to many other photographers). So the only advantage of FF for me is the added resolution.
And the fact is that FF lenses at f/4 are cheaper and lighter than APS-C at f/2.8. You could argue that the F/4 lenses are few and far between, and you're correct. So maybe now isn't the best time for you. But for Pentax, with the knowledge that FF sensors and presumably cameras are becoming cheaper, should seize upon this trend and offer something for a couple of different price ranges.

QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
However I'm already getting stunning resolution at 18 x 12 print sizes from my K-5. At 18 x 12, you wouldn't be able to visually perceive the difference in resolution between the K-5 and any camera with any camera with a larger sensor and more MP.
I'm probably not as good a photographer as you, then, but I can tell the difference between my stiched-pics and my non-stiched pics, even at 18x12.



QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Larger sensors tend to lead to larger glass;
That's a fundamental disagreement, that I don't think we'll agree on. In the 'normal' range of glass (say 24-200), APS-C equivalent glass is larger. I've had this argument about five times with people, every time I go look up the lenses and list them down, so I should probably make a personal-sticky - but I encourage you to look for *equivalent* glass that is smaller and lighter with APS-C.

QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
So attempts to argue that FF doesn't necessarily cost more than APS-C are misleading, particularly for those of us who are not true believers in the religion of narrow DOF.
Narrower DOF is always more expensive. The only question I find relevant is, is it more or less expensive than the same level of narrow-DOF on APS-C?

Last edited by ElJamoquio; 09-15-2012 at 05:17 PM.
09-15-2012, 05:07 PM   #156
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on the size note, my FA primes are tiny, much smaller than their CaNikon counterparts, almost as small as my DA Limiteds and some of those have FF coverage as well. certainly no one would call the FA Limiteds "big".

small size was always one of Pentax's tenants with both lenses and bodies, which is why an FF sensor inside a K-5 body would've been (and still can be) a true market differentiator.

Last edited by illdefined; 09-15-2012 at 05:13 PM.
09-15-2012, 09:15 PM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
I look forward to Z1sD announcement on monday.
Which color did you pre-order, pink or lime?
09-15-2012, 09:21 PM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raffwal Quote
Which color did you pre-order, pink or lime?
Well, I went for the ever so popular Creampuss edition.

09-16-2012, 04:14 AM   #159
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The question is really one of what you like to shoot. I do a lot of landscape photography and a little bit of wildlife photography and for both of these, full frame offers little advantage. For wildlife, I generally am cropping from my APS-C sensor. For landscape, I am stopping down to between f8 and f11.

It is somewhat ironic to me that all of these discussions come down to depth of field. Up till recently (not sure about the K5 II), Pentax could not do narrow depth of field action shots very well due to limitations in the auto focus system. Stick their current auto focus system on a full frame camera and the struggles would just worsen. Hopefully those are fixed, but to me the biggest reasons why people have gone full frame in the past have been for the nicer glass, and higher specs that were available in such bodies compared even to high end APS-C. Certainly if Pentax is going to release a full frame camera, they will have to hit a minimum of the D600 specs in order to sell it.
09-16-2012, 06:44 AM   #160
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I love my K-5. And I will continue to use it until (not if) Pentax comes out with a FF.

I am not a professional, but enjoy taking pictures to chronical my life, and adorn my computer desktop.


I already have the 50mm 1.7 sharp-as-a-newly-honed-knife lens. Can't wait to pop that puppy on a FF body.

I am hoping to acquire at least one more FF compatible lens before the FF becomes available. I don't seem to use a LOT of various lenses. I seem to stick with just a few. So, I guess that will mean I can go to a FF without much fuss and extra cost. In fact, I might even sell some of my crop-sensor compatible lenses to raise a bit of cash. Or not. Keep the K-5 as long as it keeps 'clicking'.

For what it's worth, I believe Adam's initial post. I read good things into it.

And a wonderful next April Fool's day joke?

How about this:

(Back drop is that Pentax has officially, for sure, announced a FF camera due out Sept 2013)
April Fools joke:

Announce that Pentax ran into some problems, and sensor supply line was cut, and there will be no FF for at least 18 months.

It's great because when you discover it is just a rumour, you can let out a great sigh of relief, knowing that the FF is just a few months away.

Good joke, still happy, still smiling.
09-16-2012, 06:59 AM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The question is really one of what you like to shoot. I do a lot of landscape photography and a little bit of wildlife photography and for both of these, full frame offers little advantage. For wildlife, I generally am cropping from my APS-C sensor. For landscape, I am stopping down to between f8 and f11.
For landscape pics, you would get ~1.5x the resolution if you went FF; I don't know if that matters to you or not. If you never print it might not. You also might be able to use a smaller and cheaper lens; I don't know if that matters to you or not.
09-16-2012, 09:47 AM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
For landscape pics, you would get ~1.5x the resolution if you went FF; I don't know if that matters to you or not. If you never print it might not. You also might be able to use a smaller and cheaper lens; I don't know if that matters to you or not.
I print all the time and with my K5, I get good quality up to about 20 inches, which is the most that I ever print. Could it be better? Maybe, but the people who I show my prints like them, as do I.
09-16-2012, 10:30 AM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I print all the time and with my K5, I get good quality up to about 20 inches, which is the most that I ever print. Could it be better? Maybe, but the people who I show my prints like them, as do I.
I printed a 24x32 with a K110D. But I used mpix and got some fantastic quality out of it.
09-16-2012, 10:36 AM   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by Buschmaster Quote
I printed a 24x32 with a K110D. But I used mpix and got some fantastic quality out of it.

Sure. The need for high megapixel cameras for "big printing" is over rated, particularly considering that few people will take a magnifying glass to a print that is 36 inches on a side.

I just have a hard time believing that two sharp photos, one shot at 24 megapixels on a full frame camera and the other shot on a 16 megapixel APS-C camera (assuming landscape photo, stopped down, similar framing) would look that much different, or that for most prints, there would be much visible difference.
09-16-2012, 10:37 AM - 1 Like   #165
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Well, when Pentax finally releases a FF camera I hope this thread has a Happy Ending.
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