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09-18-2012, 06:08 AM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by -JW- Quote
I don't really get all the responses, Pentax is doomed, they are falling behind the competition, the competition is steaming ahead of them?

I was quite negative in the first place as well, but then I gave it some thought and actually looked at what the competition is offering.

- They are falling behind the competition? What competition?
- On APS-C it is still one of the best camera's out there.
- Nikon didn't update their D7000 did they? Neither did they replace their dinosaur D300, which is over three years old.
- Canon didn't update their three year old 7D and it has barely dropped in price over the last 2 years. The 60D by Canon doesn't even compare to the K5 and is probably outperformed by the new K-30.
- The K5 by Pentax is only 2 years old, so it is much younger than the competition AND it has been updated AND it is priced lower.


QuoteOriginally posted by -JW- Quote
The competition will update their APS-C camera's as well in some time. You really think canon and Nikon are going to cancel their entire APS-C line and replace it with full frame from now on? Come on, entry level DSLRs still make up for most of their revenue in DSLRs from what I know.
Nikon will certainly update the D8000 with the 24mp sensor from the D3200, and Canon will beef up the 60D a good bit in the 70D to be "just pro enough" like the D7000, but nobody is making giant pro APS-C DSLRs anymore (7D, D300), not with their new "small" FFs out and their actual FF pro lines above that.

The K-5II really needed to be faster (PrimeM at least) and/or 24mp (just as good marks by DxO) to be seen as a worthwhile upgrade, especially above Pentax's own K30. Pentax didn't even give websites like DPreview preview copies, or worse, the sites didn't care enough to preview and write about them, they just posted the press release.

The only reason I can think of that they didn't go with 24mp is that Pentax has imminent plans for that number. But right now, APS-C that's "still competitive" with cameras from 2-3 years ago isn't going to cut it.

09-18-2012, 06:10 AM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by -JW- Quote
The competition will update their APS-C camera's as well in some time. You really think canon and Nikon are going to cancel their entire APS-C line and replace it with full frame from now on?
Agreed. You would think that in 6 months all there will be on the market will be M4/3 and FF....

But APS-C is doing very well at the moment. The APS-C NEX platform is selling great and spawning all sorts of variants (5x, 6, 7, video), Canon has just released the APS-C EOS-M mirrorless format with a new lens mount and a bunch of lenses, Canon, Nikon and Sony introduced several new APS-C bodies this year, and Nikon, Sony, Canon and others have released a whole bunch of new crop lenses in 2012 too.

All it will take is for Nikon and Canon to issue updates or replacements for the D7000 and 7D to firmly kill off the idea that APS-C is going nowhere. And I bet it won't be too long before those get announced - eg a 24MP APS-C D7000 replacement seems probable.
09-18-2012, 06:14 AM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
All it will take is for Nikon and Canon to issue updates or replacements for the D7000 and 7D to firmly kill off the idea that APS-C is going nowhere. And I bet it won't be too long before those get announced - eg a 24MP APS-C D7000 replacement seems probable.
It won't be until next spring. It's too late now to announce anything before the Christmas buying season. CP+ is going to be a big show...
09-18-2012, 06:23 AM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And you know APSC DSLRs have no future, because the competition isn't updating their APSC cameras

By the way, where is the $1500 (MSRP) FF DSLR?
APS-C DSLRs will top out at $1299-$1499 "serious enthusiast" level but i feel the days of pro/semi-pro APS-C above that are done, too much pressure from mirrorless. The space above $1500 is where the 6D and used FF will fall into. The D600 will stay above $2000 for a long while.

09-18-2012, 06:32 AM   #170
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But no mirrorless is truly able to put pressure on the top APS-C DSLRs...
09-18-2012, 06:42 AM   #171
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Agreed. You would think that in 6 months all there will be on the market will be M4/3 and FF....

But APS-C is doing very well at the moment. The APS-C NEX platform is selling great and spawning all sorts of variants (5x, 6, 7, video), Canon has just released the APS-C EOS-M mirrorless format with a new lens mount and a bunch of lenses, Canon, Nikon and Sony introduced several new APS-C bodies this year, and Nikon, Sony, Canon and others have released a whole bunch of new crop lenses in 2012 too.
I for one never claimed APS-C was dead, but that high-end $1500+ APS-C DSLRs are dead. That's a problem because those were always the cameras that Pentax used to undercut.

Like you said, Sony and Samsung have proven APS-C works well without a mirror, so the days of lugging a dinosaur 7D (bigger than a 5D) or D300 just for an APS-C sensor are over. Even Canon has taken APS-C mirrorless, with adapters for all their Rebel and crop lenses. APS-C will remain, but strictly as a midrange format.
09-18-2012, 06:44 AM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Check out the signup date. This person signed up for PF just to say they had switched brands. I'm thinking they are probably a paid troll.
Sometimes I check these type of people out also. I look at their photographs so see if they possibly have Pentax Photo Gallery material. Judge for yourself if these people screaming for a FF have good photos.
09-18-2012, 06:53 AM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
But no mirrorless is truly able to put pressure on the top APS-C DSLRs...
Last year i wouldve agreed with you, but since then the 24mp NEX-7, Fuji X, weathersealed OM-D and GH3 just came out and they definitely give my K5 a run for its money. At half the weight.

Wait until the DxO rating comes out for the OM-D, its another "miracle" sensor provided by Sony. EVFs are getting better by the moment and Sony (yes, our vaunted sensor supplier) just finished investing heavily in Olympus for a sizable stake as well - it's all just beginning.

Pentax is being squeezed really hard in the middle, between mirrorless and FF. It's gotta break out.


Last edited by illdefined; 09-18-2012 at 07:52 AM.
09-18-2012, 09:48 AM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
I for one never claimed APS-C was dead, but that high-end $1500+ APS-C DSLRs are dead. That's a problem because those were always the cameras that Pentax used to undercut.
Don't think so, thing is these camera's often have a lot of features and good hardware compared to the entry level FF so in a sense 2 different markets.

They lower end will be snooped away by mirrorless for sure and the high-end will also feel their heat.
09-18-2012, 10:12 AM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Don't think so, thing is these camera's often have a lot of features and good hardware compared to the entry level FF so in a sense 2 different markets.

They lower end will be snooped away by mirrorless for sure and the high-end will also feel their heat.
I'm not debating that, I just think those features you mentioned will be folded into the D8000/70D line.

Last edited by illdefined; 09-18-2012 at 10:22 AM.
09-18-2012, 10:25 AM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by -JW- Quote
I d...
- Canon didn't update their three year old 7D and it has barely dropped in price over the last 2 years. The 60D by Canon doesn't even compare to the K5 and is probably outperformed by the new K-30.
If i globally agree with your position, i must correct this : Canon has just issued a new firmware for 7D that includes an almost complete up-dating of this body
09-18-2012, 10:35 AM   #177
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My impression of Pentax at photokina was really a bit depressing. Even the Pentax reps at the booth had no clue what to show at the show until the last moment. They have little information about the K5II, even need to fold the quickly printed prospectus of the K5II. The 560mm is on display behind glass only.

The current prospectus of Pentax lenses does NOT list any FA lens anymore: 31/43/77 gone - only the DFA is doing well.

Also little news at the Ricoh booth.

In conclusion: it can only get better.
09-18-2012, 10:41 AM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
...
Like you said, Sony and Samsung have proven APS-C works well without a mirror, so the days of lugging a dinosaur 7D (bigger than a 5D) or D300 just for an APS-C sensor are over. Even Canon has taken APS-C mirrorless, with adapters for all their Rebel and crop lenses. APS-C will remain, but strictly as a midrange format.
QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Don't think so, thing is these camera's often have a lot of features and good hardware compared to the entry level FF so in a sense 2 different markets.

They lower end will be snooped away by mirrorless for sure and the high-end will also feel their heat.
Sony is breaking down the doors with their Nex mirrorless models. The Nex6 with its hybrid focusing is quite interesting and once they have a FF Nex, watch out Canikon. 2012 is the year of the large sensor mirrorless camera. Meanwhile, my K5 keeps doing things very well and has always been fun to take pics with. When i go snowshoeing this winter - it'll be the k5 that delivers. But Pentax needs to emulate Sony IMO with their approach to the market.
09-18-2012, 10:51 AM   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
....
The current prospectus of Pentax lenses does NOT list any FA lens anymore: 31/43/77 gone - only the DFA is doing well.
...
In conclusion: it can only get better.
Really ?
Well, that's a pity, or even a very bad sign for the FF dreamers...

http://www.pentax.jp/english/products/lens/

Fortunately, the japanese site still present them.
09-18-2012, 10:51 AM - 1 Like   #180
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
But Pentax needs to emulate Sony IMO with their approach to the market.
I disagree with this wholeheartedly.

Sony, in my view, has a "spray 'n' pray" approach to the camera market -- throw model after model after model out there, and hope some of them do well. Several APS-C and one FF DSLR-like translucent mirror cameras, check! Full-frame compact, check! 20x and 30x superzoom bridge cameras, check! Four models of NEX mirrorless, check check check check!

TOO MUCH!
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