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09-19-2012, 07:52 PM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
And that happens where? Target? We all have heard that line before, Ritz is closed, Atlanta has 1 non-bigbox retail camera outlet.
There are lots of smaller pro-shops. I use Dury's here in Nashville. The Fuji XP-1 has been so successful that they have started stocking Fuji. Still no Pentax. Photography student walks in the door and they get handed Canon or Nikon.

I'm not talking about big boxes. I am talking about small specialty camera shops. They can't and wont sell Pentax if they have to compete with the big NY dealers. Not being in these shops hurts Pentax. When the local schools send students into these shops (where they get a discount) they don't see Pentax on the shelves. At one point in time almost every photography 101 class "recommended" the Pentax K-1000 for students. It was in production for close to 20 years and was carried by all the pro-shops. The Pentax 67 was a standard work horse for many commercial photographers.

09-19-2012, 09:48 PM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Pentax does don't dictate what they sell for, only what they advertise.
I don't believe that's correct.
Prior to the MAP debacle, Adorama and B&H had a price they advertised with but by clicking a button (or putting the item in the cart) you could see the true (much lower) retail price.

The current MSRP policy is much stricter than the above. I believe that the current "phone in and get a better price" situation is semi-tolerated and won't be sustainable in the future.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
By raising the MAP the Pentax line becomes more appealing to brick and mortar stores who can not compete with on-line retailers.
That was the plan but all Pentaxians got in return for paying double for their DA* lenses was the fact that Target sold Pentax P&S cameras.

Where are all the Pentax DSLRs in brick and mortar stores?

Given the shoddy implementation of MSRP so far (prices keep going up and down, increase with rebates, low prices still available by phoning in, etc.) I don't see how any brick and mortar store has an incentive to carry expensive Pentax gear.

I'm not a business person but it seems obvious that Pentax USA currently gets the worst of both worlds: No brick and mortar shop presence and highly inflated online prices.

I guess that Pentax USA has to get creative in order to create incentives for brick and mortar stores (e.g., generous acquisition/storage/return policies and/or subsidised pricing for brick and mortar shop sales). One thing that seems clear is that trying to declare Pentax as a premium price brand overnight with super inflated online prices is a strategy that is bound to fail.
09-19-2012, 10:29 PM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I'm not a business person but it seems obvious that Pentax USA currently gets the worst of both worlds: No brick and mortar shop presence and highly inflated online prices.
Plus tons of resentment among its long-term customers.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
One thing that seems clear is that trying to declare Pentax as a premium price brand overnight with super inflated online prices is a strategy that is bound to fail.
If the product isn't priced respective to its value, it won't sell. That's what has seemingly escaped their attention so far in these pricing strategies.
09-20-2012, 05:27 AM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I don't believe that's correct.
Prior to the MAP debacle, Adorama and B&H had a price they advertised with but by clicking a button (or putting the item in the cart) you could see the true (much lower) retail price.

The current MSRP policy is much stricter than the above. I believe that the current "phone in and get a better price" situation is semi-tolerated and won't be sustainable in the future.
We will have to see.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
That was the plan but all Pentaxians got in return for paying double for their DA* lenses was the fact that Target sold Pentax P&S cameras.

Where are all the Pentax DSLRs in brick and mortar stores?

Given the shoddy implementation of MSRP so far (prices keep going up and down, increase with rebates, low prices still available by phoning in, etc.) I don't see how any brick and mortar store has an incentive to carry expensive Pentax gear.

I'm not a business person but it seems obvious that Pentax USA currently gets the worst of both worlds: No brick and mortar shop presence and highly inflated online prices.

I guess that Pentax USA has to get creative in order to create incentives for brick and mortar stores (e.g., generous acquisition/storage/return policies and/or subsidised pricing for brick and mortar shop sales). One thing that seems clear is that trying to declare Pentax as a premium price brand overnight with super inflated online prices is a strategy that is bound to fail.
How long do you think it will take? The change has been in effect less than a year. Until Pentax releases a product that is desirable It's not going to happen. Fuji is popping up in B&M specialty stores simply because dealers know it is a good seller and it is more expensive than any APS-C camera Pentax makes. It is not going to happen over night and its not going to happen until Pentax puts an exciting product on the market.

If Pentax wants to be sold by small pro-shops they will have to market the brand to make it profitable for these shops. This also means they need to offer an upgrade path to FF. When Pentax launches a FF they will need a presence in these shops. People in the market for FF don't go to Target for camera supplies.

09-20-2012, 06:13 AM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
There are lots of smaller pro-shops. I use Dury's here in Nashville. The Fuji XP-1 has been so successful that they have started stocking Fuji. Still no Pentax. Photography student walks in the door and they get handed Canon or Nikon.

I'm not talking about big boxes. I am talking about small specialty camera shops. They can't and wont sell Pentax if they have to compete with the big NY dealers. Not being in these shops hurts Pentax. When the local schools send students into these shops (where they get a discount) they don't see Pentax on the shelves. At one point in time almost every photography 101 class "recommended" the Pentax K-1000 for students. It was in production for close to 20 years and was carried by all the pro-shops. The Pentax 67 was a standard work horse for many commercial photographers.
There simply are not many smaller pro shops. Anyone can point to one someplace. Atlanta used to have 20+ shops that you could handle 10+- SLRs in without any problem. Now we have 1. One. Many others have piped up and reported that the closest Pro Camera store to them is X hours away, in another State, etc. Why is that so hard for people to grasp? The bricks and mortar camera store of the past is a rare and dying breed today. I took a Saturday morning, that I could have done better things with, to drive downtown to the lone camera store we still have in Atlanta. They had, after the K-30 road tour, a total of 3 K-30 kits in the store - all black. No lenses. No flashes. No other Pentax gear. Two clerks said they didn't have them. The General Manager realized they did and got one out for me to handle. I was the first person to ask as he had to open the box, unpack the camera, put the lens on, find the battery, etc. They didn't have a single item that wasn't significantly more expensive than I can get it readily. Also, when I order from Adorama, B&H, or Amazon the items are delivered to my home/office for next to nothing and if I need to return an item to Amazon I can have it picked up at their expense from my home/office. I wasted gas and time going downtown to see a K-30 and try to patronize a local company. They failed to call me, as they offered to do, with a quote on a blue K-30. All their prices in store were outrageous - period. $19 for a cable that was identical to the one I ordered from Amazon for $3? Get real.

It is a fantasy that Pentax will build its sales through camera stores in the US. They do not exist in any meaningful numbers. Also, the general public doesn't go to them for a camera. Why would they when they cost more? I have 3 sisters who have dSLRs. One I bought as a gift for her. The other two bought them for themselves. One Nikon kit from WalMart as I recall and the other a Canon kit from Target. Both purchased in store. When Pentax USA's ex-President made thinly veiled hints about product placement in Target, back in April after the disasterous roll out of Maximum Assured Pricing, he asserted that MAP was a requirement by that huge national chain for them to take Pentax into their stores. That was simply untrue, as we know now with Target only carrying dSLRs through their website at MAP. So, how did we gain by MAP and Target precisely?

Last edited by Docrwm; 09-20-2012 at 06:20 AM.
09-20-2012, 06:31 AM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
It is a fantasy that Pentax will build its sales through camera stores in the US. They do not exist in any meaningful numbers. Also, the general public doesn't go to them for a camera. Why would they when they cost more? I have 3 sisters who have dSLRs. One I bought as a gift for her. The other two bought them for themselves. One Nikon kit from WalMart as I recall and the other a Canon kit from Target. Both purchased in store. When Pentax USA's ex-President made thinly veiled hints about product placement in Target, back in April after the disasterous roll out of Maximum Assured Pricing, he asserted that MAP was a requirement by that huge national chain for them to take Pentax into their stores. That was simply untrue, as we know now with Target only carrying dSLRs through their website.
You realize it has only been a couple of months? Kind of hard to judge the success or failure in that time frame. I agree that the new pricing is very high for the quality, and Pentax needs to really improve their glass if they want to sell it at that price. Target may or may not be the only retail outlet and since Target is a french company and Pentax has a strong following in France the partnership with Target might not be focused on USA sales. The real success will come IF Pentax can release products that generate excitement among buyers.

B&M stores are not going to die out, but their will be fewer of them. We have two here in town if you don't count Wolf. We probably have 3 Wolf Cameras. We have two that carry a large selection of paper, chemicals, bags, cameras, cameras, lenses, and lots of lighting. I bought a Think Tank bag there last month as it was $2.00 less than the big online stores. They are price competitive on certain items. Their Fuji XP1 was $1,600 dollars, the same as Amazon. Their paper is on the high side, but most items I have bought have been very competitive.
09-20-2012, 07:06 AM   #232
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Wolf and Worldwide are gone from Miami, so is an independent shop (Phil's) that used to carry a lot of Pentax gear. There's now one "pro" location -- I won't name it -- that has never carried anything Pentax and probably never will. Utter the word "Pentax" in there, and the temperature in the room drops precipitously. Staff give you a contemptuous look and turn away. Some months ago, Tiger Direct (they have several retail stores here) did actually have some Pentax cameras in stock, but no demo models of any kind. If you wanted to touch a Pentax, you had to buy it first. They didn't even want to take the box out of the locked case unless you bought it first -- no touching the box (never mind the camera) until you'd handed over your plastic. It was a K-x (one only) and my intent was a K-r, which they didn't have.
09-20-2012, 07:12 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
You realize it has only been a couple of months? Kind of hard to judge the success or failure in that time frame. I agree that the new pricing is very high for the quality, and Pentax needs to really improve their glass if they want to sell it at that price. Target may or may not be the only retail outlet and since Target is a french company and Pentax has a strong following in France the partnership with Target might not be focused on USA sales. The real success will come IF Pentax can release products that generate excitement among buyers.

B&M stores are not going to die out, but their will be fewer of them. We have two here in town if you don't count Wolf. We probably have 3 Wolf Cameras. We have two that carry a large selection of paper, chemicals, bags, cameras, cameras, lenses, and lots of lighting. I bought a Think Tank bag there last month as it was $2.00 less than the big online stores. They are price competitive on certain items. Their Fuji XP1 was $1,600 dollars, the same as Amazon. Their paper is on the high side, but most items I have bought have been very competitive.
Good for you. Glad you have one of the few remaining camera stores in the country that is nearby. Glad their prices are competitive. Unfortunately your case is so unusual that it causes a stir and gets noticed. Atlanta's one local store is not competitive on prices. I spent ~2 hours in a VERY small store and looked at prices. The cable was one I actually thought would be easier to just pick up while I was there so I already had which model and all and had checked online. 6 times as much, plus 7% tax. Bags you say, you got a good price on a Think Tank, yeah. My last bag was $7 less through Amazon than I saw it that wasted Saturday morning.

As for the dodge about Target and France, it was the Pentax USA President that asserted the BS line about them requiring MAP for the Pentax camera line to be in their stores. Context, it's actually important. Pentax WG-2s are in their stores, I hear - yeah. Why again did they have to raise lens prices through the roof for that to happen? Because no dSLRs are in Target stores per reports here and my own checking, only online - but at much higher prices than Amazon. Again, that helps how?

09-20-2012, 07:22 AM   #234
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I will say again, Ricoh is RIGHT NOW, AS YOU READ THIS, moving to improve everything we are complaining about and have for years complained about. Ricoh has stated their goal for Pentax Ricoh Imaging worldwide is to rapidly double the market share from 5% to 10%. Good grief, Pentax USA is such low-hanging fruit!! So, read again from Adam's recent post in the NEWS section: [Copy ~ Paste]
Mr. Noboru Akahane, president of Pentax Ricoh Imaging in Japan (hereby referred to as Pentax Japan), [the Big Dog] will be assuming the role of president of Pentax USA as of October 1st, 2012. In addition, Mr. James Malcolm [the Enforcer] will been appointed executive vice president of Pentax USA, and he will report directly to Mr. Akahane while taking on many of Bunnell's responsibilities.

We think that this sudden change in the corporate structure of Pentax USA means that Pentax Japan, now under Ricoh's leadership for about 1 year, is getting ready to start implementing Ricoh's overall plans for the company. This is supported by the following statement from the press release:

"Most recently Mr. Malcolm has been working with Ricoh Company, Ltd. in Japan on the post-acquisition integration of PENTAX on a global basis. His insight and experience have set the direction and provided the vision needed to initiate management changes, including compliance with merger strategies."

While we have not heard any official news of Pentax products resulting directly from Ricoh's involvement with the company, it has been rumored that Ricoh is working behind-the-scenes to make Pentax a very competitive brand even in the pro DSLR market, while asking Pentax employees to execute the remainder of Hoya's old product roadmap in the meantime. We believe this quote foreshadows that the future holds what thousands of Pentax fans have been awaiting for years.
A company the size of Ricoh does not assign reports for a market the size of USA to the President of its dividion's home market unless it is quite serious about fixing a broken market. It does not assign an executive as important, experienced and skillful as James Malcolm to "operating" that market unless it is quite serious about fixing that market.


I've posted many times over he last year that Pentax USA simply has allowed itself to shrink to the point hat it could not implement Ricoh's plans, as it was previously constituted. There are only 50 employees in Denver. Customer Service, Repairs, Marketing, Advertising, Website design and implementation and whatever else are all contracted out to non-employees. National Accounts are called on by the President (Ned), National Sales and Marketing VP (John Carlson) and ONE Rep. A product tour makes stops in only SIX cities, skipping St. Louis, where there actually is a nine-store chain that maintains a direct-buy account with Pentax and has since 1975.

10% market share is REQUIRED to allow Pentax to offer even limited professional support, regular sales calls on B&M store buyers, merchant credit, workshops, advertising support (co-op and print), all of which are required to obtain B&M store distribution.

10% market share is REQUIRED to have enough cash flow to develop FF lenses, accessories and sensor volume sufficient to entice Sony to offer some production to Pentax - thus REQUIRED before Petnax can offer an economically viable FF body.

Ricoh understands the above (and more that I don't understand) and has just shown the commitment that they intend to build their market share.

Be of Good Cheer. Ricoh has a Plan. You will be happy. Count on it.

Last edited by monochrome; 09-20-2012 at 02:26 PM.
06-17-2013, 05:14 PM - 1 Like   #235
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To put things in perspective; well, it seems that many months after the FotoKina Pentax Ricoh has affirmed the claim that they should stay firmly supporting their mounts (and surprise us with other treats as well).

- MX-1 happened, first prosumer pocket cam from Pentax in a while
- GR happened too, and o boy, it's a delight
- Q7 is a refresh and a delight too
- K50 and K500 welcome and smart additions to the K-mount too

I admit, before the April 17th, or before the GR announcement, things looked bleak.
But when writing this in mid June, the dedication is here and visible.

It's good to revisit these old threads and add an up to date perspective on some old thoughts and fears.
06-17-2013, 07:33 PM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
To put things in perspective; well, it seems that many months after the FotoKina Pentax Ricoh has affirmed the claim that they should stay firmly supporting their mounts (and surprise us with other treats as well).

- MX-1 happened, first prosumer pocket cam from Pentax in a while
- GR happened too, and o boy, it's a delight
- Q7 is a refresh and a delight too
- K50 and K500 welcome and smart additions to the K-mount too

I admit, before the April 17th, or before the GR announcement, things looked bleak.
But when writing this in mid June, the dedication is here and visible.

It's good to revisit these old threads and add an up to date perspective on some old thoughts and fears.
They do have more cameras available now...but they have since raised the price of more lenses and still no B&M presence. I think lens prices are still a big problem for them unless they only want to sell the kit lenses.
06-17-2013, 07:48 PM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
They do have more cameras available now...but they have since raised the price of more lenses and still no B&M presence. I think lens prices are still a big problem for them unless they only want to sell the kit lenses.
I apologise, I cannot sympathise with US customers nor I want to.

I personally believe the prices we pay in Australia are finally fair, on the same level as in rest of the world, and thanks to fair pricing and overall effort of the local distributor I can see more and more Pentax cameras in the street.
06-17-2013, 07:52 PM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
They do have more cameras available now...but they have since raised the price of more lenses and still no B&M presence.
From what I hear the B&M Dealers have not yet forgiven Pentax for the "Distributor" approach of the prior administration. Pentax is literally regaining Dealer Agreements one-at-a-time, in an environment where the bulk of Dealers learned they really don't need Pentax anyway.
06-17-2013, 08:39 PM   #239
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Or we can say it in other words — the US market was so messsed up by the previous Pentax USA managements that now under the Ricoh, the president for that market is Mr Noboru Akahane himself — the president of the Pentax Ricoh Imaging from Japan.

So when the documents are presented to dealers and distributors and B&M stores, his name stands behind it.
06-17-2013, 08:39 PM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
From what I hear the B&M Dealers have not yet forgiven Pentax for the "Distributor" approach of the prior administration. Pentax is literally regaining Dealer Agreements one-at-a-time, in an environment where the bulk of Dealers learned they really don't need Pentax anyway.
In Canada at least Nikon, Canon and Sony are cutting the small shops out. Canon dropped a distributor and now deals directly with large vendors, Nikon is laying off it's field reps. Sony is only large shops.

Everyone will sell the bulk of their product through the internet retailers, but they need to have their product somewhere so that folks can see them. We shall see what Pentax does, but they might need to stock retailers themselves, as the B&M's will be hesitant to buy anyone's stock because they often end up being only a way for people to see the product that they end up buying online.
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