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09-17-2012, 12:28 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by traderdrew Quote
It doesn't make it obsolete at this time. In two years what are we going to see from Sony? A thirty something MP sensor? How many megapixels does someone need? I would think the 645D customer base is going to dwindle in two to four years with the advancements in technology.
It's tough to make lenses that would take advantage of a 30 MP APS-C sensor.

It's far, far, far easier to make lenses that would take advantage of a 60 MP 645 lens.

09-17-2012, 12:32 PM   #47
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Guys, the reason that this is disappointing is not that they did not release a new camera. I could live with that. The reason that this is disappointing is that the new camera is the K-5 II, especially after the release of the K-30. The K-5 is 2 years old. It was in production for 2 years. So after two years we have a new camera, and all they improved is the AF and the screen? And meanwhile, the K-30 already has a better image processor. Heck, even the K-01 has that same image processor. Taking that into account, does anyone really think that the K-5 II is going to remain competitive over the next 2 years? I don't.

Don't get me wrong, I like the K-5 and I'm sure I'd like the K-5 II even more. But the point is, I'm not going to upgrade, and I think neither are most K-5 users. And if the K-5 II won't be competitive over the next 2 years, neither are new users. So... what's up with that?

But the fact is that right now, Pentax is communicating that the K-5 II is indeed the successor of the K-5, and will remain in production for the next 2 years.
09-17-2012, 12:35 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by starbase218 Quote
Guys, the reason that this is disappointing is not that they did not release a new camera. I could live with that. The reason that this is disappointing is that the new camera is the K-5 II, especially after the release of the K-30. The K-5 is 2 years old.
But the K-5 is the best APS camera on the market. How could that be bad? Must it be better than best to count?
09-17-2012, 12:37 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
But the K-5 is the best APS camera on the market. How could that be bad? Must it be better than best to count?
Yes, it's the best... Then don't discontinue it and release a new camera in a different segment. Conquered one segment, march on to the next! Sadly, no such luck though.

09-17-2012, 12:38 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
It's tough to make lenses that would take advantage of a 30 MP APS-C sensor.

It's far, far, far easier to make lenses that would take advantage of a 60 MP 645 lens.
I remember Falk writing a post a few months back saying that the limit for aps lenses is 100mp. I think the real issue is more sensor low-light/noise performance than lenses. Even the D4 was kept to 16mp.
09-17-2012, 12:39 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
But the K-5 is the best APS camera on the market. How could that be bad? Must it be better than best to count?
because the high-end has moved on from APS-C DSLRs.
09-17-2012, 12:39 PM - 9 Likes   #52
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Jeez.

Ricoh has owned Pentax for less than a year at this point.

In my experience working with engineers in high-tech companies, it can take around three years for a new product to be planned, designed, developed, and released. Three years. That's a very reasonable development cycle, especially in a smallish company with limited development resources.

Looking backward from right now, two of those years would have been during the Hoya ownership, when everybody around here KNEW things were pretty lean at Pentax. There were rumors about engineers being cut loose, rumors about the company being shopped around -- and look, it clearly WAS shopped around! We know that now.

Nonetheless, they recently still squeezed out the 645D, the Q, the K-01, the K-5 II/s, the O-GPS1, and a few lenses. That's not too bad under the circumstances.

And Ricoh is really showing some signs of commitment. Look at the Photokina presence. We're seeing better advertising now.

Maybe Hoya worked on FF, I don't know. But if they didn't, Ricoh has a pretty big and long-term job to pull one together, even if they fully intend to do exactly that.

Yes, Pentax is behind the big boys. Digital-era Pentax has ALWAYS been behind Nikon and Canon. Remember, from 1999-2003, Pentax had no DSLR at all. That's not very long ago.

Canon introduced its first FF model in 2003, and Nikon in 2007. Obviously, that failure to compete is what caused Nikon to shrivel up and die, because everyone who ever wanted a FF bought a 1Ds. Wait, hold on, they didn't? Nikon did not fall further and further behind without an FF to compete with Canon?

I understand the current lack of FF is bothering a number of people here. I get it. I don't blame people for switching brands. But it's not like 2012 is some kind of historic special year for FF, "now or never."

If Pentax develops and releases a nice, competitive FF model with some compelling features, they'll do fine. Maybe it will be 2013, or maybe 2014, or 2015. Maybe there won't be a stampede to buy them out, but when was the last time Pentax experienced that?

In the meantime, there are an awful lot of APS-C DSLRs yet to be sold. I see piles and piles of APS-C starter kits at Costco, and people are apparently buying them.

Cameras come, cameras go. People come, people go.

There's a huge crowd of APS-C DSLR people out there, and if there isn't a viable Pentax upgrade path, then some of them will upgrade to Canon/Nikon FF. Many won't. I don't see that equation changing this year, next year, or anytime soon.
09-17-2012, 12:39 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
But the K-5 is the best APS camera on the market. How could that be bad? Must it be better than best to count?
My point is, if you don't put your latest technology into your newest products, you will lose. Because the competition will put their latest technology into their products. It's really that simple.

09-17-2012, 12:40 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote
So, K-3 and 645DII likely will be announced at CP+ 2013: CP+ CAMERA & PHOTO IMAGING SHOW 2013
Probably, there are prototypes of these cameras behind the scenes already at Photokina.
What did Pentax USA (not) know about FF?
Impressions about the 560/5.6?
More information about the AF module inside the 5II (f2.8 sensor[s])?
Is it true that the naming 5N was not used due to a possibly problematic "Ns" abbreviation in 5Ns?

Last but not least: Have fun!
That's the spirit of a true Pentaxian. He keeps dreaming and believing!
09-17-2012, 12:42 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
As for a 24x36 camera - Pentax problem is the sensor. Their most likely source is Sony, but Sony has since many years a deal with Nikon which means that Nikon has exclusive rights to Sony's newest sensors for several months before Sony can sell the sensor to another manufacturer (like Pentax). I don't know if this deal is a bout a delay for 6 or 12 months before Sony can ship it to their other customers. So, when Pentax gets the newest Sony sensor - it is already old on the market...
Could you post a link or some kind of support for this "6 month exclusive" that Nikon has?

Sony is pretty much a whore when it comes to selling components. Anybody, anywhere, anytime. There was a some indication that Nikon partnered with Sony on the sensor design of the 12MP sensor in the D700, D3, & D3s. Because Nikon worked on the design they had an exclusive. There has been nothing since then to indicate any form of exclusivity. The 36MP sensor in the D800 is cut from the same wafers as the 16MP APS-C sensor.

Can anyone post a link to anything concrete about an exclusivity agreement between Nikon and Sony? Or are we just building rumors on top of rumors?
09-17-2012, 12:44 PM - 1 Like   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
that is sad news for Pentaxian.

Looking at announcements from other brands, we have nothing really exciting.
I don't think other brands have exciting things either, a few stripped down cheap FF's. Sony is more or less something new but what a batterylife, 470 shots when using the EVF (granted, 500 with LCD).
Nikon and Canon both cheap FF's. With exception of the sensor, even their more advanced and by now obsolete (accroding to some) APS-C bodies are better value for money so what are they really for? To make the D300/7D user go FF? I have my doubt about that. D800 (or the D900 of next year) or 5DMkV is what those people will go for.
The avid 60D/D7000 user will have read all forums and by now is probably thinking about waiting and saving a bit more. The more I think of it, the more it seems like the D600 and the 6D are not "exciting new developments" but a sort of panic reaction after corporate intelligence showed some company might be working on a cheap FFdslr.
At least pentax worked on a new AF thingy.
09-17-2012, 12:44 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
As for a 24x36 camera - Pentax problem is the sensor. Their most likely source is Sony, but Sony has since many years a deal with Nikon which means that Nikon has exclusive rights to Sony's newest sensors for several months before Sony can sell the sensor to another manufacturer (like Pentax). I don't know if this deal is a bout a delay for 6 or 12 months before Sony can ship it to their other customers. So, when Pentax gets the newest Sony sensor - it is already old on the market...
That is pure internat speculation. The Nikon D7000 and the K-5 share the same sensor and were released within a week of each other.
No one has provided any evidence that there is some agreement between Nikon and Sony regarding a "waiting period".
This whole rumor was sparked as an excuse why Pentax seems to lag behind the bigger players.
09-17-2012, 12:45 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I remember Falk writing a post a few months back saying that the limit for aps lenses is 100mp. I think the real issue is more sensor low-light/noise performance than lenses. Even the D4 was kept to 16mp.
But he didn't say what the *cost* of those lenses are. In contrast he presented general trends indicated that at a certain point it is cheaper to go with a larger format. That limit is far, far below the 100 MP APS-C lens quality (think 5xLeica prices for those lenses).
09-17-2012, 12:49 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by traderdrew Quote
It doesn't make it obsolete at this time. In two years what are we going to see from Sony? A thirty something MP sensor? How many megapixels does someone need? I would think the 645D customer base is going to dwindle in two to four years with the advancements in technology.
How do we know that in 2 years Pentax wont be buying 72MP CMOS MF sensors from Sony? You seem to be looking at this as though APS-C is going to evolve and MF is not. Why do you think the 645 customer base is going to dwindle? Pentax could not keep up with demand for the 645D. Pentax has released more Pro-grade optics for the 645D platform in the last few years than they have for K-mount. I still shoot film with a Contax 645 and it is a very popular camera among wedding togs. I would absolutely consider a Pentax 645D as the technology evolves and the lens line up expands. Hopefully the sensors will get back closer to the true 645 size.
09-17-2012, 12:51 PM - 1 Like   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by starbase218 Quote
Because the competition will put their latest technology into their products. It's really that simple.
The funny thing is, neither Nikon nor canon have really done so. Nikon sensor is not by them (and already used in the A99) and the 6D senor probably is a downgraded version of the 5DMkIII sensor. Wel they added also low light AF but that has also already been done by pentax. No exciting new technolgies from the big two either... only Canon added a bit of extra already existing technology
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