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09-17-2012, 02:21 PM - 1 Like   #91
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I fail to understand why high end APS-C would fall from existence now that Entry level FFs are out...

Nikon D600 - more MP than the D7000 and k-5, but less pixel density. Lenses outresolve sensors at this time. Noise performance - 1 stop better than the D7000, but of course, priced at $500 more than the D7000's introductory price. Lacks quite a few features so it doesn't cannibalize D800 sales.

Canon 6D - more MP than the k-5 (and 7D), but has (probably) a bad AF system implemented. If they had the 19 point system in the 7D, why did they downgrade to an 11 point (single cross point) AF system for the 6D? And noise performance? RAW files are about equal to the k-5. With in camera NR - the output jpegs are certainly nice, but it's not an upgrade from the high-end APS-Cs.

If we want to kill APS-C, I don't think half-assed entry level FFs are going to do the trick.

09-17-2012, 02:22 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
I think we can summarize the thread positively this way:

1) Pentax updates arguably the best APS-C camera out there with better AF (as requested by many on this forum).
I miss anything?
You forgot to add that most featured on the wishlist was that better AF, followed by the long lens followed by those who preferred APS-C followed by FF preferrers...
09-17-2012, 02:23 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by janneman Quote
You forgot to add that most featured on the wishlist was that better AF, followed by the long lens followed by those who preferred APS-C followed by FF preferrers...
I would love to mention the DA 560 in a more positive light, but it's price is a little bit high - plus it has a lot of haters on this forum. I would GLADLY feel better about it if Pentax would release some damn image samples.

The 18-270 is also overpriced - but whatever...
09-17-2012, 02:28 PM   #94
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K30 has a different image processor and sensor allowing better video. That is all. If they allowed better video on the K5, the still picture quality would drop. It's one or the other. I feel fortunate we have the K5 in three different tiers.

I think there isn't any problem at all, just how and with what bias/filters we look at it.



QuoteOriginally posted by starbase218 Quote
Guys, the reason that this is disappointing is not that they did not release a new camera. I could live with that. The reason that this is disappointing is that the new camera is the K-5 II, especially after the release of the K-30. The K-5 is 2 years old. It was in production for 2 years. So after two years we have a new camera, and all they improved is the AF and the screen? And meanwhile, the K-30 already has a better image processor. Heck, even the K-01 has that same image processor. Taking that into account, does anyone really think that the K-5 II is going to remain competitive over the next 2 years? I don't.

Don't get me wrong, I like the K-5 and I'm sure I'd like the K-5 II even more. But the point is, I'm not going to upgrade, and I think neither are most K-5 users. And if the K-5 II won't be competitive over the next 2 years, neither are new users. So... what's up with that?

But the fact is that right now, Pentax is communicating that the K-5 II is indeed the successor of the K-5, and will remain in production for the next 2 years.


09-17-2012, 02:31 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Where, towards entry level DSLRs with a so-called FF sensor?
With this year's improvements to mirrorless sensors and systems, and the introduction of cheaper FF DSLRs, I feel APS-C DSLRs have settled squarely into the entry to upper-midrange and no further. the threat to the K5II isn't the D600 or 6D, but indeed the K30 itself, the two year old D7000, and now the weathersealed 16mp OM-D and GH3.
09-17-2012, 02:32 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
I fail to understand why high end APS-C would fall from existence now that Entry level FFs are out...

Nikon D600 - more MP than the D7000 and k-5, but less pixel density. Lenses outresolve sensors at this time. Noise performance - 1 stop better than the D7000, but of course, priced at $500 more than the D7000's introductory price.
Don't forget that in order to get the same exposure on that D600 as on a K-5 you need to increase ISO one stop. There goes that advantage. It is the same "advantage" that gives the thinner DOF "advantage".
09-17-2012, 02:34 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
With this year's improvements to mirrorless sensors and systems, and the introduction of cheaper FF DSLRs, .
There has been no price drop on FF DSLR's so cheaper doesn't make sense. 24mp FF DSLR's are now more expensive than previously and the bodies are cheaper made....
09-17-2012, 02:39 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Because it is not about mega-pixels. I think you are missing the point. Megapixels is just one small part of the equation. For certain work a 36MP FF can compete with MF, but people who shoot MF typically do so because they print large. For people who don't print large there is no reason to use MF. For people who shoot for a living, especially commercial work, then MF pays for itself. If it didn't you would not have seen a waiting list for the 645D. There have already been prototype MF CMOS sensors shown. It is only a matter of time before that technology makes its way into production MF bodies and we see MF get cheaper and much more flexible. Because of the size and weight of the bodies I think MF has the most to gain from mirror-less design. We have already seen a Samsung prototype and Hassy has one rumored to be under development. Companies are not putting millions into a market segment they think is going to be obsolete. Both the Leica S3 (2 new lenses) and Pentax 645D should be updated in the very near future.

I will agree that the lens is more important than the camera in many ways. You have to have very, very good glass on an APS-C if you want to compete with FF and large prints. Why do you think Olympus SHG glass is bigger, heavier, & more expensive than the FF Canon or Nikon equivalent? If crop sensors are going to compete with FF or MF then they need really, really good glass.
So you are telling me that a hypothetical Sony 40 MP sensor from the future that has similar performance numbers to the 24 MP sensor in the A99 wouldn't compete with the large Kodak sensor in the 645D? I imagine if you print some large photos then you could see some differences in colors and the transitions of tones if both cameras were tested using a high quality lens.

I really can't tell any difference between the smooth color tones and transitions between the K-5 and the Mark IV even though the Canon Mark IV is a much more expensive camera that I happen to admire by the way. The only difference I can see is some of the photos from the Canon have that Canon look. This was just an example.

I would think Olympus DSLR lens prices are also high because of lower volume of sales compared to Canon and Nikon.

As far as the FF is concerned, there are software programs such as hugin that combine and merge multiple photos to create wider scenes and more resolution. It may not be applicable in all situations where subjects and the weather may change but it is an option. However, there is still the advantage of using a FF lens on both a FF and an APS-C camera and getting different results. I think I have typed enough in Falk's thread.

And by the way about another FF post here... The best wide angle seascape photographer I have seen on flickr by the name of Jim Patterson does have a FF but also uses an APS-C D7000 with a 12-24mm lens with the help of Photoshop CS5. How wide do you have to go?


Last edited by traderdrew; 09-17-2012 at 03:02 PM.
09-17-2012, 02:40 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
I fail to understand why high end APS-C would fall from existence now that Entry level FFs are out...
Because nothing matters more than an arbitrary sensor size

By the way, I have the feeling that, if Pentax would announce a similar entry level "FF" DSLR tomorrow, people would be very disappointed with and angry about it.
Fortunately, they won't do it.
09-17-2012, 02:41 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
I fail to understand why high end APS-C would fall from existence now that Entry level FFs are out...

Nikon D600 - more MP than the D7000 and k-5, but less pixel density. Lenses outresolve sensors at this time. Noise performance - 1 stop better than the D7000, but of course, priced at $500 more than the D7000's introductory price. Lacks quite a few features so it doesn't cannibalize D800 sales.

Canon 6D - more MP than the k-5 (and 7D), but has (probably) a bad AF system implemented. If they had the 19 point system in the 7D, why did they downgrade to an 11 point (single cross point) AF system for the 6D? And noise performance? RAW files are about equal to the k-5. With in camera NR - the output jpegs are certainly nice, but it's not an upgrade from the high-end APS-Cs.

If we want to kill APS-C, I don't think half-assed entry level FFs are going to do the trick.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
That would be great new for Pentax as they would have the market for themselves. Fat chance though. The Canon 7D has been one of Canon's greatest sucesses and I'm sure they will make a follow up. If something stays long in the market might be because it sells..
I've said this in another thread, my theory on this is that the 7DII will in fact be the 70D. Canon will follow Nikon in pushing APS-C down into a slightly upgraded midrange line like they did merging the D90 and D300 into the D7000.

the 7D was a hit for videomakers and they will appreciate the swivel screen of the 60D far more than its pro AF, it will be Canon's lower cost answer to the GH3.
09-17-2012, 02:47 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by janneman Quote
You forgot to add that most featured on the wishlist was that better AF, followed by the long lens followed by those who preferred APS-C followed by FF preferrers...
I believe many of us expected/wanted 24mp for the K5II as well, further differentiating it from the K30.
09-17-2012, 02:50 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
There has been no price drop on FF DSLR's so cheaper doesn't make sense. 24mp FF DSLR's are now more expensive than previously and the bodies are cheaper made....
~ $2000 for a *new* FF DSLR is a new benchmark. prices will fall further down from there.
09-17-2012, 02:59 PM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
I fail to understand why high end APS-C would fall from existence now that Entry level FFs are out...

Nikon D600 - more MP than the D7000 and k-5, but less pixel density. Lenses outresolve sensors at this time. Noise performance - 1 stop better than the D7000, but of course, priced at $500 more than the D7000's introductory price. Lacks quite a few features so it doesn't cannibalize D800 sales.

Canon 6D - more MP than the k-5 (and 7D), but has (probably) a bad AF system implemented. If they had the 19 point system in the 7D, why did they downgrade to an 11 point (single cross point) AF system for the 6D? And noise performance? RAW files are about equal to the k-5. With in camera NR - the output jpegs are certainly nice, but it's not an upgrade from the high-end APS-Cs.

If we want to kill APS-C, I don't think half-assed entry level FFs are going to do the trick.
Fair points all, but with three megacorps now behind lower-spec FF and a fair chance of FF mirrorless from the likes of Fujifilm quite soon, not too likely it will crash and burn and the three then retreat back to high-end APS-C and lick their wounds. If the present round of FF cams isn't quite right they will keep pushing at it until they hit the spot, and they can afford to. Why? 'Cos that's where they think the money is. High-end APS-C is now low-spec FF. The step change may not be nice from some angles but I would guess that is the way it is from now on. This is potentially a serious problem for companies who bet the farm or most of it on APS-C and hoped to make a lot of money off the high end of it just as a similar bet was for Olympus when they had to face the music over 4/3 DSLRs. Of course this doesn't mean that APS-C won't sell well for years but if you cut off the high end other things follow. Expensive but high-profit lenses stop making a great deal of sense when the cams for them are generally more modest, for example. Just my 2 cents, etc.

Last edited by mecrox; 09-17-2012 at 03:10 PM.
09-17-2012, 02:59 PM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
~ $2000 for a *new* FF DSLR is a new benchmark. prices will fall further down from there.
the Sony A850 sold for $1,999. Its not a new benchmark, and in the 2 years since, prices have not fallen further down. The A850 was a very good camera for the money. Probably better than the Canon 6D, but not as good as the D600.
09-17-2012, 03:04 PM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
the Sony A850 sold for $1,999. Its not a new benchmark, and in the 2 years since, prices have not fallen further down. The A850 was a very good camera for the money. Probably better than the Canon 6D, but not as good as the D600.
you're right, I stand corrected. looking back, the A850 was a harbinger of things to come.

there's direct competition at that level now, and mirrorless is muscling it's way up the semi-pro/pro non-FF ladder.
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