[Katier]

if anything, the improvements in the K5II are still an attempt at catching up with the firmly last generation 7D and D7000; absolutely nothing to do with the cameras announced this year.

Well given the 7D is worse than a K5 the K5II is hardly 'catching up' was it?

If your doing work requiring really wide angles I can understand FF and similarly if your pushing the limits of light collection in low light conditions.. but that's a pair of pretty specific needs.

I get into a lot of debates with a Nikon and a Canon user and something the Nikon user posted suddenly setup lightbulbs going. Of the 3 of us, two use FF, one (me) a crop sensor. The Canon user is heavy on 'needing' FF for image quality, the Nikon often uses his MLC Nikon especially when he wants to benefit from the crop for wildlife work.

The Nikon user works in the sensor industry and suddenly it all came clear. Canon is actually lagging behind Sony sensor tech (and indeed Nikons other APS-C sensor sources) by a noticeable amount - and not currently catching up. At FF though Canon is on at least a par with Nikon, so for a Canon user FF (even an older one) is probably a better bet than, even, a 7D.

So a newbie sees Canon users recommending FF.. and is instantly assuming that FF is essential, when it's not.

Interestingly the Canon user also does a LOT more post processing than the Nikon user and myself.

[illdefined]

Well given the 7D is worse than a K5 the K5II is hardly 'catching up' was it?

image quality wise, no argument there. I meant in terms of the features/spec-sheet (ie. market). AF-wise I doubt even a K5III will match that level CaNikon's.

totally agree with you re: Canon's sensor development vs. Sony's, the problem of course being nobody really knows about it, like you said. won't see me crying for Canon.

[Homo_erectus]

The K-5 won't live forever. It is highly competitive though and theres no reason to discontinue or replace it. Whats the life span on similar Nikon and Canon bodies?

My girlfriend's mom just replaced her Canon EOS D60 with a Canon EOS 60D, that's ten years of use. She's a semi-pro photographer who makes her living with a mashup of photography, illustration and graphic design. She used that D60 every day of the week for the entire time she owned it.

Most people buy a new camera when their old one dies, stops working or gets so long in the tooth that it just doesn't cut the mustard anymore. Then they go buy a new one that's more or less feature competitive with what's on the market and is in their price range. The K5-II is feature competitive in it's price range today and will be for a while.

The VAST majority of people who buy K5-II's this fall will probably not buy another DSLR for at least 3 to 5 years. Heck, most people who bought a K5 probably have another few years of use before they start upgrading / replacing in large numbers. So, as long as there is something for them to replace / upgrade to that's a Pentax, that's feature competitive, at the time they want to buy, everything'll be fine.

The lack of a new FF camera sucks for the people who have specific needs that can't be met with the currently available hardware or who have more money than sense but it's really no big deal otherwise.

[Cannikin]

Well given the 7D is worse than a K5 the K5II is hardly 'catching up' was it?

Besides the Sony sensor's performance, how exactly is the 7D worse than the K5?

The 7D has:

- Better AF
- Bigger viewfinder
- Faster burst rate
- Better video
- Better flash

Besides riding the wave of Sony's sensor, in 2010 the K-5 still trailed the 7D, which is a year older than it, in several important specs. 2 years later, the K-5 II addresses exactly 1 thing in that list, the AF, and is yet unproven (and still lacks in AF points). For the rest Pentax has chosen to do absolutely nothing, not even incorporating upgrades found in the K-30/K-01 which have been out for several months.

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Last edited by Cannikin; 09-17-2012 at 03:39 PM.

[bossa]

Maybe they are keeping their cards very close to their chests..

Really, even after the game is, ostensibly, over? Unless they plan on releasing revolutionary stuff in the immediate distant future that seems an odd course of action to take. More likely, It also points to nothing in the immediate future. They'd better be prepared to lose a good proportion of their 'serious' clients to the FF options available from other manufacturers after this PK. I now know that I'll be selling all of my Pentax stuff next week while I can still get a reasonable return on my investment.

[Ex Finn.]

how exactly is the 7D worse than the K5?

For $1500.00 at B&H, the 7D better be better.www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/646908-REG/Canon_3814B004_EOS_7D_SLR_Digital.html

[traderdrew]

Besides the Sony sensor's performance, how exactly is the 7D worse than the K5?

The 7D has:

- Better AF
- Bigger viewfinder
- Faster burst rate
- Better video
- Better flash

Besides riding the wave of Sony's sensor, in 2010 the K-5 still trailed the 7D, which is a year older than it, in several important specs. 2 years later, the K-5 II addresses exactly 1 thing in that list, the AF, and is yet unproven (and still lacks in AF points). For the rest Pentax has chosen to do absolutely nothing, not even incorporating upgrades found in the K-30/K-01 which have been out for several months.

The 7D is a very good camera but I would say the image quality (I suspect it is something to do with dynamic range) isn't as good as the K-5 with a similar lens on it. It is more of an overall look but sometimes the 7D produces some awesome images and this has all to do with the right lighting and the lens. The K-5 is better with noise and has a slight advantage with wide angle photography.

Some people like the autofocus of the 7D but I can deal with the K-5. It isn't that bad and I have taken some dam good flight shots of birds (click on my flickr link in my profile to see if you want)

Someone told me that one 7D user spends a lot of time in post processing (he takes photos of birds with a 500mm prime like I do) but I told him that if I have to do more than three minor adjustments in pp then I have to question if I did something wrong in the field.

I have rambled enough in this thread but I will say one more thing because I think this thread is getting a lot of attention.

You pro FF people who complain are also undermining Pentax because new Pentax users can get the wrong impressions of the brand and not see the forest outside of the trees. The best thing to do and it is what I think Adam did is to get organized and send a big message to Pentax.

[kenyee]

So a newbie sees Canon users recommending FF.. and is instantly assuming that FF is essential, when it's not.

At some point, if you have paid work (e.g., wedding photographer), people will expect you to have a FF body to make sure you're serious
And of course, they'll expect you to have an iPhone and iPad to show you're "creative"

But seriously, I agree w/ others that the push to FF will continue and at some point, Pentax's "high end" will have to be FF simply because Canikon's mid/high end are.

What I don't get is why Sony thinks pricing their A99/RX1 at $2800 is the right thing to do when the D800 is only $3K...I think they're smoking crack

[Aristophanes]

Thanks Falk. Always a pleasure.

The original rumours of the Nikon D600 were pretty much accurate. Same for the 6D. Same for Sony's products. And Fuji. Even the Leica Monochrom had leaks that proved very true.

What was the scoop on Pentax?

That 6 months after Sony and Nikon got their prosumer FF DSLR's out Pentax may be able to have a similar product ready. FF is largely about sensor supply, and that means volume sales, which Pentax does not have because of the price point. The $2199 price point is within Pentax's spitting distance, so I expect FF in the future, but with I suspect that Photokina was off because sensor availability is not finalized. That's my take.

So, I find it likely that some of the rumours which proved to be quite accurate will remain quite accurate. 2012 is not the year for Pentax FF. 2013 is. The K-5 extension is a sign.

I also think Ricoh and Pentax need to re-think their compact camera line in the face of the smartphone onslaught and, frankly, both are well positioned there for niche products. Their problem is quality sensors, which, along with the Q, are going to be increasingly necessary to maintain market traction. There is still a market for compacts and superzooms at many price points.

The main short-term Pentax problem I see in the face of trying to stay competitive is the price of APS-C products, especially lenses. In the face of FF competition APS-C lenses are simply too expensive. That's a real problem Pentax is going to face for the next 1-2 years revenue-wise. It's a killer issue. The DA 15 Ltd is not a $650 lens. It's $375 lens in the new reality. All the DA Ltd's and the 16-50/50-135 lenses need to drop in price substantially to maintain any competitiveness.

Also, Pentax needs a new flash system. That has to be in place engineering-wise pre-FF.

That Sony RX1 is a weird looking thing.

[Pioneer]

Personally I was thrilled with this year's Photokina announcements so I guess it just depends on your perspective. For many, many years I have watched Pentax build a terrific camera, then seem to walk away from it. Two quick examples of this are the LX and the PZ-1p. I am a bit worried about the K-01 since I didn't see anything at Photokina to indicate that they are building anything to support that camera. But at least they did not leave the Q hanging. There were 3 announcements related to the Q and that to me was a huge positive for that little system.

Of course there are some of you who just cannot take a small camera serious. Instead you just have to have a wannabe Canikon full frame. For those of you who just absolutely cannot stand it until Pentax has a full frame DSLR, go buy a 35mm film camera and a scanner! Either that or buy the new Nikon since everyone seems so thrilled with it.

But for goodness sake, quit whining about it being the end of the world!

[Pål Jensen]

If your doing work requiring really wide angles I can understand FF and similarly if your pushing the limits of light collection in low light conditions.. but that's a pair of pretty specific needs.f.

Actually, really wide lenses, ie supe wide angles is much better both optically and pricewise for APS. They are easier to design not only due to the smaller image circle but also due to no restriction from the lens mount. Super wide angles for FF are very expensive and complex.

[Pål Jensen]

The main short-term Pentax problem I see in the face of trying to stay competitive is the price of APS-C products, especially lenses. In the face of FF competition APS-C lenses are simply too expensive. .

Nikon and Canon do not release FF cameras to replace anything (and they won't anyway) but to fill every hole in the DSLR niche. They have so much volume that this is natural thing to do instead of updating existing cameras at a faster tempo. APS is a format in its own right and lenses and camera do not need to have a sort of constant price advantage over anything else. For most photographers, bigger sensors just mean disadvantages, not at least in price, if they do want to print larger than the smaller formats permit...

Anyway, I predict that Pentax will make an APS camera above the K-5 (K-3?) at the next junction. This camera will outperfom the 20mp FF Canon in in image quality and come in a vastly more pro body. I judge this from Pentax APS lens Roadmap that have some real goodies on it. In addition, they will expand the MF Digital line-up. After all, Ricoh have made no secret that this is one of their priorities. I think Pentax will approach FF from below and from above. From below they will have a price and size advantage; from above they will have an image quality advantage.

[Ubuntu_user]

Thanks Falk. Always a pleasure.

The original rumours of the Nikon D600 were pretty much accurate. Same for the 6D. Same for Sony's products. And Fuji. Even the Leica Monochrom had leaks that proved very true.

What was the scoop on Pentax?

That 6 months after Sony and Nikon got their prosumer FF DSLR's out Pentax may be able to have a similar product ready. FF is largely about sensor supply, and that means volume sales, which Pentax does not have because of the price point. The $2199 price point is within Pentax's spitting distance, so I expect FF in the future, but with I suspect that Photokina was off because sensor availability is not finalized. That's my take.

So, I find it likely that some of the rumours which proved to be quite accurate will remain quite accurate. 2012 is not the year for Pentax FF. 2013 is. The K-5 extension is a sign.

I also think Ricoh and Pentax need to re-think their compact camera line in the face of the smartphone onslaught and, frankly, both are well positioned there for niche products. Their problem is quality sensors, which, along with the Q, are going to be increasingly necessary to maintain market traction. There is still a market for compacts and superzooms at many price points.

The main short-term Pentax problem I see in the face of trying to stay competitive is the price of APS-C products, especially lenses. In the face of FF competition APS-C lenses are simply too expensive. That's a real problem Pentax is going to face for the next 1-2 years revenue-wise. It's a killer issue. The DA 15 Ltd is not a $650 lens. It's $375 lens in the new reality. All the DA Ltd's and the 16-50/50-135 lenses need to drop in price substantially to maintain any competitiveness.

Also, Pentax needs a new flash system. That has to be in place engineering-wise pre-FF.

That Sony RX1 is a weird looking thing.

You said this right...

[creampuff]

I don't think other brands have exciting things either, a few stripped down cheap FF's. Sony is more or less something new but what a batterylife, 470 shots when using the EVF (granted, 500 with LCD).
Nikon and Canon both cheap FF's. With exception of the sensor, even their more advanced and by now obsolete (accroding to some) APS-C bodies are better value for money so what are they really for? To make the D300/7D user go FF? I have my doubt about that. D800 (or the D900 of next year) or 5DMkV is what those people will go for.
The avid 60D/D7000 user will have read all forums and by now is probably thinking about waiting and saving a bit more. The more I think of it, the more it seems like the D600 and the 6D are not "exciting new developments" but a sort of panic reaction after corporate intelligence showed some company might be working on a cheap FFdslr.
At least pentax worked on a new AF thingy.

Apparently you've not understood that as market leaders, Canon and Nikon are able to fracture the market and create new market segments, such as the APS-C upgrader. They are already blurring the line between professional grade and amateur grade equipment with their cheap FF offerings.

Unfortunately Pentax has no such aspirational product to show. When there is no upgrade path to FF, the cheap FF offerings from Canon and Nikon are there to sway an already expectant user base to jump ship.

[Tonto]

Jeez.

Ricoh has owned Pentax for less than a year at this point.

..........

There's a huge crowd of APS-C DSLR people out there, and if there isn't a viable Pentax upgrade path, then some of them will upgrade to Canon/Nikon FF. Many won't. I don't see that equation changing this year, next year, or anytime soon.

Great post Quicksand...I am actually very excited what the K5IIs offers especially in terms of AF and the difference no aa filter makes.