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09-20-2012, 10:05 PM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I think what he means by that is that future and new users are the key to the success of Pentax. The legacy user base is too small and too polarized to be overly relevant in the long run. Canon changed mounts and everyone thought it was the end of the world, but it paid off for Canon over the long run. Made a lot of legacy users pretty mad, but made the company better off.
OK, thanks I see that.

Pentax is going to miss out on possible sales from existing users across all platforms for another two years and is already seeing a drain of current users to other platforms due to availability and price of FF cameras and MILC. The price you pay for being late to the table is that most of the food has already been eaten. Going back over previous threads related to FF on these forums spans years. Way back in 2008 people were predicting "this is the year" and it never happened.

I bought a D800E and will probably sell off my K-5 system to fund another body and a telephoto but that money (and that already spent) could have been spent on a couple of Pentax FF or high end ASP-C bodies. I originally sold two K-5 bodies expecting the new model to have 24mp, an articulated screen (maybe), better video (definitely) and Focus Peaking (definitely). I ended up buying another K-5 at a pretty decent price to get me through a few weeks of no Nikon (focus calibrations) but now appears to be a good time to sell the lot.

Six months is probably about it. There will be people saving money for a new camera (D800?) and it just might work out that they are ready to buy at about the time a FF Pentax camera becomes available. But I suspect they won't release anything like that for at least a year or, mostly likely, not until Photokina 2014.

If you want a full frame DSLR then my advice is to jump ship and get on with life. Life is too short to keep hanging around waiting for other people to deliver something when it's already available elsewhere. Would you willingly starve to death waiting for a pizza delivery that never comes when you can cook yourself great food every day of the week?

09-20-2012, 10:16 PM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
OK, thanks I see that.

Pentax is going to miss out on possible sales from existing users across all platforms for another two years and is already seeing a drain of current users to other platforms due to availability and price of FF cameras and MILC. The price you pay for being late to the table is that most of the food has already been eaten. Going back over previous threads related to FF on these forums spans years. Way back in 2008 people were predicting "this is the year" and it never happened.

I bought a D800E and will probably sell off my K-5 system to fund another body and a telephoto but that money (and that already spent) could have been spent on a couple of Pentax FF or high end ASP-C bodies. I originally sold two K-5 bodies expecting the new model to have 24mp, an articulated screen (maybe), better video (definitely) and Focus Peaking (definitely). I ended up buying another K-5 at a pretty decent price to get me through a few weeks of no Nikon (focus calibrations) but now appears to be a good time to sell the lot.

Six months is probably about it. There will be people saving money for a new camera (D800?) and it just might work out that they are ready to buy at about the time a FF Pentax camera becomes available. But I suspect they won't release anything like that for at least a year or, mostly likely, not until Photokina 2014.

If you want a full frame DSLR then my advice is to jump ship and get on with life. Life is too short to keep hanging around waiting for other people to deliver something when it's already available elsewhere. Would you willingly starve to death waiting for a pizza delivery that never comes when you can cook yourself great food every day of the week?
If you do sell your Pentax kit, I hope you will still hang out around here. At least in the Non-Pentax Cameras forum.

If for no other reason than I might need your advice if I'm going to be buying a Nikon kit.
09-20-2012, 11:06 PM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Because of this I think we might see a Ricoh FF EVIL with a new mount. Pentax can develop it and even produce it. I don't care who's name is on it or what mount is uses as long as it is well designed and works really well. The boat anchor known as K-mount might force Ricoh to be the innovative name brand and Pentax to be the legacy brand.
Pretty much my thoughts, although I don't see FF being as essential as introducing a new mount. I can see an FF camera as being on their roadmap with an APS-C one being offered first. What they need to provide is good controls and features and both companies know how to do that.

I was looking at the Ricoh forum and their poor users are even more confused about the lack of announcements. They are getting the idea that it is Pentax that is running the show and killing the GXR
09-21-2012, 12:10 AM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
OK, thanks I see that.

Pentax is going to miss out on possible sales from existing users across all platforms for another two years and is already seeing a drain of current users to other platforms due to availability and price of FF cameras and MILC. The price you pay for being late to the table is that most of the food has already been eaten. Going back over previous threads related to FF on these forums spans years. Way back in 2008 people were predicting "this is the year" and it never happened.

I bought a D800E and will probably sell off my K-5 system to fund another body and a telephoto but that money (and that already spent) could have been spent on a couple of Pentax FF or high end ASP-C bodies. I originally sold two K-5 bodies expecting the new model to have 24mp, an articulated screen (maybe), better video (definitely) and Focus Peaking (definitely). I ended up buying another K-5 at a pretty decent price to get me through a few weeks of no Nikon (focus calibrations) but now appears to be a good time to sell the lot.

Six months is probably about it. There will be people saving money for a new camera (D800?) and it just might work out that they are ready to buy at about the time a FF Pentax camera becomes available. But I suspect they won't release anything like that for at least a year or, mostly likely, not until Photokina 2014.

If you want a full frame DSLR then my advice is to jump ship and get on with life. Life is too short to keep hanging around waiting for other people to deliver something when it's already available elsewhere. Would you willingly starve to death waiting for a pizza delivery that never comes when you can cook yourself great food every day of the week?
Same here, I'm out or soon will be. It isn't about FF in my case. What this year's Photokina has shown to me is that a company which relies for the bulk of its revenue on, effectively, a single product in the APS-C DSLR is toast. Whatever Ricoh decide to make of Pentax, it will be a very different company from the one it is now. That is is over and finished, imho. During the lifetime (two years) of any APS-C DSLR issued now or over the next six months, FFs will achieve pricing parity or darn near so and smaller form factors at one end and MILCS will achieve plenty good enough technical parity and system size (lenses et al) at half the size and weight of a DSLR at the other end. Heck, they've pretty well already done so. None of this means that the APS-C DSLR suddenly loses its virtues since it has many but it does mean that Pentax is likely to go through a period of change and, for a customer, turmoil as it alters course in search of survival and growth. Much better, for me at least, to stay clear until things are done and dusted and then maybe take a look back later. A lot of ex-customers or potential ones won't be taking another look later but as you say, that's the nature of the beast when you get into the kind of situation Pentax is now in. The barely stocked cupboard at Photokina, their execs seemingly unable to say anything about anything, Ricoh camera customers not knowing whether there will even be another Ricoh cam - it's not good.


Last edited by mecrox; 09-21-2012 at 12:38 AM.
09-21-2012, 12:32 AM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
If you want a full frame DSLR then my advice is to jump ship and get on with life. Life is too short to keep hanging around waiting
Exactly right!
09-21-2012, 12:53 AM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Same here, I'm out or soon will be. It isn't about FF in my case. What this year's Photokina has shown to me is that a company which relies for the bulk of its revenue on, effectively, a single product in the APS-C DSLR is toast. Whatever Ricoh decide to make of Pentax, it will be a very different company from the one it is now. That is is over and finished, imho. During the lifetime (two years) of any APS-C DSLR issued now or over the next six months, FFs will achieve pricing parity or darn near so and smaller form factors at one end and MILCS will achieve plenty good enough technical parity and system size (lenses et al) at half the size and weight of a DSLR at the other end. Heck, they've pretty well already done so. None of this means that the APS-C DSLR suddenly loses its virtues since it has many but it does mean that Pentax is likely to go through a period of change and, for a customer, turmoil as it alters course in search of survival and growth. Much better, for me at least, to stay clear until things are done and dusted and then maybe take a look back later. A lot of ex-customers or potential ones won't be taking another look later but as you say, that's the nature of the beast when you get into the kind of situation Pentax is now in. The barely stocked cupboard at Photokina, their execs seemingly unable to say anything about anything, Ricoh camera customers not knowing whether there will even be another Ricoh cam - it's not good.
I'm afraid I have to agree with all of that.
09-21-2012, 01:06 AM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by TOUGEFC Quote
Exactly right!
Ditto

Autumn/Winter is my favourite time. I'm not sitting another one out with my fingers crossed that Pentax are bringing something out. Decision made. Gone.
09-21-2012, 01:06 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
FF is the locomotive of modern photo market
As a reality check, some recent data on the photo market would be useful at this point in the discussion.

Breakdowns by FF, APS-C, micro-4/3, interchangeable lens compacts (eg Nikon J1) sales volumes would be particularly handy, worldwide or in key markets. As a bonus, revenues from each sensor size too

I suspect that FF sales may certainly be on the increase, but may not be a locomotive.

Especially as many of the D800's and 5D3's (for example) being sold seem to be from D700 or 5D2 users trading up, thus releasing their older bodies onto the used market, where they effectively dilute new FF volumes (ie we are probably seeing a lot of FF churn, not net growth).

09-21-2012, 01:14 AM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by mark lj Quote
Ditto

Autumn/Winter is my favourite time. I'm not sitting another one out with my fingers crossed that Pentax are bringing something out. Decision made. Gone.
Ouch! I can't wait to see your beautiful shots from the big sensor Mark.

Last edited by bossa; 09-21-2012 at 01:24 AM.
09-21-2012, 01:21 AM   #235
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I doubt Pentax is going to lose any significant sales from not rushing out a FF camera now (while neglecting the APS-C, of course) compared with their chosen strategy.
Have patience if you can - if not, just jump ship FFS. Pentax has a plan for their growth, one that makes much more sense than forum ramblings, it takes time to be completed and it's (almost) secret.

By the way, I like this year's stand better than the one 2 years before. Bigger, they're showing more things, they're even not afraid to show pictures. Of course, it's not huge and they don't have stuffed birds one can shoot with some cutting edge Android camera...
09-21-2012, 01:49 AM   #236
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Just read this interview:
Fuji investigates full-frame system camera sensor
Déjà vu?

Last edited by froeschle; 09-21-2012 at 01:54 AM.
09-21-2012, 03:09 AM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by mark lj Quote
Ditto

Autumn/Winter is my favourite time. I'm not sitting another one out with my fingers crossed that Pentax are bringing something out. Decision made. Gone.
But Mark, they are bringing something out..... a rebadged K-5 and a rebadged Tamron super-zoom!!! Exciting stuff!!

Congrats on the decision
09-21-2012, 03:17 AM   #238
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I understand

QuoteOriginally posted by mark lj Quote
Ditto

Autumn/Winter is my favourite time. I'm not sitting another one out with my fingers crossed that Pentax are bringing something out. Decision made. Gone.
My favorite time of year as well - interesting and dramatic skies. And Canon and Nikon's new low-end FF cameras really have me looking - at the prices on their FF glass!

So maybe instead I should just pony-up about half what I would spend on a new FF body and good wide-angle lens, and buy a great wide angle lens for my K-5!
09-21-2012, 04:38 AM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by lammie200 Quote
Sony has the sensors - I get that. What about the notion that Sony will not release the sensor to PRICL until 6 months (or somesuch time) after Sony releases its own body that uses them? Maybe Sony has already supplied PRICL with sensors for PRICL's R & D? Maybe the parties have not agreed on anything? No one knows the answers to any of this. My guess is that PRICL doesn't even have what it needs to come up with a feasible prototype - either from an engineering or production projection standpoint or both. Not sure how hard they have been trying though.
And for others who have posted in a similar vein about possible anti-competitive practices on the part of Sony.

I'm not privy to the internal workings of Sony, but I would guess that the sensor division will want to sell as many as possible to whoever wants them. Besides which, favouring their own camera division would break competition laws in practically every country on the planet.
09-21-2012, 05:01 AM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sol Invictus Quote
Agreed. And hopefully the new GXR will be designed by Mark Newson.

I kid, I kid.
Where is the negative thumbs up button??? I kid.
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