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09-24-2012, 02:36 PM - 1 Like   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Junyo, in my case "old glass" means, among others, a DA* 60-250 and 3 DA Limiteds; and guess what, I'm not the only one who bought new K-mount lenses. Should Pentax rather keep me (as I'd still spend some money on their good stuff), or make me jump to Nikon; because I don't want any stinking adapter?
Kunzite, on a good day, Pentax's loyal user base represents maybe 5% of the DSLR market. I'm not sure that if you're Pentax, that allowing yourself to be held hostage by 1 out of 20 consumers as opposed to competing for the other 19 is a brilliant marketing move. And again, that loyal base is apparently tied to them by nothing more than the sunk cost of lenses. If that loyal base was buying gear like gangbusters, Pentax wouldn't be getting passed around like a bad penny and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

09-24-2012, 02:39 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
I agree. My hope would be that Ricoh pulls a Canon move and makes K mount go the way of the FD mount, but this is very unlikely to be within their means.
That would take away one of the big selling points Pentax has, at least for me. Their great old lenses. Also, with such a small brand, I doubt it will happen as it would make ALL previously sold SLR lenses useless, unless there was an adapter that came along with the new bodies (as mentioned earlier here) that gave full functionality for K-mount lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I don't think we will see it in SLRs, but I think we will see it for an EVIL body. The biggest advantage of an EVIL system is size, and the existing K-mount negates any real advantage. Legacy lenses designed for PDAF don't function well with CDAF cameras. I don't think we will see a K-01 replacement.

Hopefully Pentax pulls a Fuji and introduces a FF EVIL body and 3 quality primes with a modern lens mount.
I disagree. Size isn't important for me, but I'd still go for a good enough electronic viewfinder over an optical as it will give many new possibilities, one of the biggest IMO, peaking.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
...
A couple of the "high-end" Pentax zooms are basically re-badged low-cost Tokina lenses for Canon or Nikon users.

...
Which ones?
09-24-2012, 02:53 PM   #93
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@Winder: Market share when they weren't even trying is irrelevant, sorry. Let's see them first trying, then decide that's all that can be done, with the K-mount.
The main issue here is: they lose the user base, they must replace it before calling it even, let alone gaining anything. Can you prove there are enough people who would buy a new mount Pentax, to cover their actual sales and then some? Those 19 are using their own systems, they won't switch that easily; in fact who would, to a brand which screws his customers? Trust is hard gained, easily lost. Yet you're making it sounds like they would gladly jump over Pentax, if only they had a new mount and basically no lenses (but a stinking adapter).
This being "held hostage" is nonsense, I'm afraid. There is nothing that prevents them to significantly improve the K-mount system, making it much more desirable than until now - and this is exactly what they're planing to.

We're having this conversation because you couldn't care less about the K-mount. By the way, what's your most recent Pentax camera&lenses? And non-Pentax?
09-24-2012, 02:54 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by netrex Quote
Which ones?
The AT-X 165 PRO DX is the 16-50mm F/2.8 but with a more dependable AF motor and sold for hundreds less in Canon/Nikon mounts.
The AT-X 535 PRO DX is the 50-135mm F/2.8 but with a more dependable AF motor and sold for hundreds less in Canon/Nikon mounts.

Both are very popular 3rd party budget lenses for Canon/Nikon owners, but for Pentax owners you end up paying hundreds more for weather sealing and SDM..... Same optical design.

Now that Pentax has been sold Tokina no longer makes these lenses, so I would expect that the Pentax 12-24mm will be discontinued soon since it is a Tokina design and the partnership is now over.

09-24-2012, 03:02 PM   #95
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Wrong, the only rebadged Pentax lens is the Tamron 18-270.
Some Pentax and Tokina lenses shares the same optical design, but each manufacturer is making their own version, thus neither is a rebadged anything. Pentax should be able to continue to make the 12-24 without an issue.
09-24-2012, 03:02 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The AT-X 165 PRO DX is the 16-50mm F/2.8 but with a more dependable AF motor and sold for hundreds less in Canon/Nikon mounts.
The AT-X 535 PRO DX is the 50-135mm F/2.8 but with a more dependable AF motor and sold for hundreds less in Canon/Nikon mounts.

Both are very popular 3rd party budget lenses for Canon/Nikon owners, but for Pentax owners you end up paying hundreds more for weather sealing and SDM..... Same optical design.

Now that Pentax has been sold Tokina no longer makes these lenses, so I would expect that the Pentax 12-24mm will be discontinued soon since it is a Tokina design and the partnership is now over.
Are you sure they're designs by Tokina, and not a cooperation? I have both, and the image quality has nothing low budget about them. Also, 9 aperture blades, when did that become budget? Are there better dedicated lenses out there that are dedicated for APS-C, regardless of brands? The 60-250mm as well, great image quality and build quality, just as the two you mention. I've had the 60-250mm, and sold it due to the max aperture, but it's as good as the two others IMO, and it certainly is no budget lens.
09-24-2012, 03:04 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
@Winder: Market share when they weren't even trying is irrelevant, sorry. Let's see them first trying, then decide that's all that can be done, with the K-mount.
The main issue here is: they lose the user base, they must replace it before calling it even, let alone gaining anything. Can you prove there are enough people who would buy a new mount Pentax, to cover their actual sales and then some? Those 19 are using their own systems, they won't switch that easily; in fact who would, to a brand which screws his customers? Trust is hard gained, easily lost. Yet you're making it sounds like they would gladly jump over Pentax, if only they had a new mount and basically no lenses (but a stinking adapter).
This being "held hostage" is nonsense, I'm afraid. There is nothing that prevents them to significantly improve the K-mount system, making it much more desirable than until now - and this is exactly what they're planing to.

We're having this conversation because you couldn't care less about the K-mount. By the way, what's your most recent Pentax camera&lenses? And non-Pentax?
You realize Fuji completely abandoned the DSLR market 5 years and and the S5 I believe was the last Fuji DSLR. That is obviously kill Fuji right now.... They are selling X-mounts faster than they can make them. Olympus has changed mounts 3 times now. Canon once. The problem with your general argument is that several other companies have changed mounts and not experienced what you describe.

Nobody is saying Pentax should "change" mounts. Only that if they develop an EVIL camera they need to design a new mount to support that system.
09-24-2012, 03:05 PM   #98
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@netrex: The 60-250 is a pure Pentax lens.

@Winder: Pentax has changed mounts twice, Canon about 3 times - but who's counting?
They were doing that in another context, with a specific purpose; they took a hit but were able to recover. Is that a guarantee they can do it now, with no purpose other than having a different mount?
The problem with your argument is that no photographic company changed their mounts without a specific, technical reason. I dare you to give even one example.
Otherwise, it's obvious why e.g. going autofocus was a good idea for Canon, how changing to a bayonet mount had benefits, or why Fuji didn't used the Nikon bodies for their X-series.

Read Laurentiu Cristofor's posts, he's saying exactly that.


Last edited by Kunzite; 09-24-2012 at 03:18 PM.
09-24-2012, 03:08 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by netrex Quote
Are you sure they're designs by Tokina, and not a cooperation? I have both, and the image quality has nothing low budget about them. Also, 9 aperture blades, when did that become budget? Are there better dedicated lenses out there that are dedicated for APS-C, regardless of brands? The 60-250mm as well, great image quality and build quality, just as the two you mention. I've had the 60-250mm, and sold it due to the max aperture, but it's as good as the two others IMO, and it certainly is no budget lens.
For other brands they were budget lenses selling for close to half of what the Pentax versions currently sell for. I did not say the IQ was poor. I said they were budget lenses..... that is they cost a lot less than the name brand options. Optically they are an excellent value (Tokina versions) and very popular among Canon and Nikon shooters.... Tokina did not use SDM and never had the QC issues that Pentax has with these two.
09-24-2012, 03:30 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Nobody is saying Pentax should "change" mounts. Only that if they develop an EVIL camera they need to design a new mount to support that system.
And they probably will, which only makes sense with an EVIL system where there is no mirror to get in the way. Then you can have a short registration distance and plenty of room to use non-optically based adapters for K-mount and others. But that's not what LC said -- he said the K-mount should just be dropped cause it sucks (paraphrasing).
09-24-2012, 03:47 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
And they probably will, which only makes sense with an EVIL system where there is no mirror to get in the way. Then you can have a short registration distance and plenty of room to use non-optically based adapters for K-mount and others. But that's not what LC said -- he said the K-mount should just be dropped cause it sucks (paraphrasing).
I don't agree with that in the short run. I don't know what the long run holds and where technology will take us. There is a world of amazing technology out there that could find its way into consumer/professional photography.

It is very possible that smaller EVIL cameras bring more people to the hobby/profession and many of them will end up moving to larger more advanced cameras like DSLRs or Sony's SLT. It is also possible that more an more people realized that EVIL systems exceed their needs and no longer have a reason to move up to DSLRs or SLT. I don't know which way it will swing, but EVIL will have a lot of growth over the next few years, and the two biggest players in DSLRs are not even putting much effort into the market. Canon and Nikon have reason to NOT develop products that eat into DSLR market share. They have market share to protect. Pentax doesn't really have enough to worry about.
09-24-2012, 03:47 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
@netrex: The 60-250 is a pure Pentax lens.
...
I know, I was using it as a comparison.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
For other brands they were budget lenses selling for close to half of what the Pentax versions currently sell for. I did not say the IQ was poor. I said they were budget lenses..... that is they cost a lot less than the name brand options. Optically they are an excellent value (Tokina versions) and very popular among Canon and Nikon shooters.... Tokina did not use SDM and never had the QC issues that Pentax has with these two.
They did have SDM problems, but the rest, AFAIK, is very high quality. Why did you mention them if it wasn't about them being poor quality?

Also, you didn't answer my question, are you sure they're Tokina re-branded lenses, and not the result of a cooperation between the two companies, which is what I believe them to be. Same optical design, different mechanical implementation.
09-24-2012, 03:50 PM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
You realize Fuji completely abandoned the DSLR market 5 years and and the S5 I believe was the last Fuji DSLR. That is obviously kill Fuji right now.... They are selling X-mounts faster than they can make them. Olympus has changed mounts 3 times now. Canon once. The problem with your general argument is that several other companies have changed mounts and not experienced what you describe.

Nobody is saying Pentax should "change" mounts. Only that if they develop an EVIL camera they need to design a new mount to support that system.
Makes sense to me. You can keep the K mount for the APS-C DSLR business which is likely to morph into something quite different over the next ten years anyway as the whole mirror-box with shutter idea becomes obsolete. You design a new electric mount for MILCs and your new lines. In fact if Pentax don't do that they're in danger of going TU anyway. The K mount brings all the disadvantages of FF - like, you are forced to make big cameras - with none of its advantages since Pentax don't do FF. And as others have pointed out, you are held hostage financially by an ageing user base who buy 50-buck legacy lenses on Ebay instead of the stock in your catalogue and who rarely want to buy your cameras at less than bargain basement rates either.

Some folks have asked why Ricoh bought Pentax if they didn't want to keep the K mount centre stage. My guess is that one reason might be that Ricoh saw in Pentax a CE brand which already had a good name worldwide and quite some history to it as well as the makings of a perfectly decent business. Regardless of that brand's products, pumping up a going concern with some recognition to it is going to be a lot less expensive and quicker than starting one from scratch. Fuji X-series cameras may be selling extremely well having come from nowhere in 2-3 years, but remember that they are called Fuji, one of the best names in the biz. If they were called Joe Blow's Retro Rangefinders from J. Blow (Panama) Inc., the Blow R-series story might not be so rosy.
09-24-2012, 04:10 PM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by netrex Quote
I know, I was using it as a comparison.

They did have SDM problems, but the rest, AFAIK, is very high quality. Why did you mention them if it wasn't about them being poor quality?

Also, you didn't answer my question, are you sure they're Tokina re-branded lenses, and not the result of a cooperation between the two companies, which is what I believe them to be. Same optical design, different mechanical implementation.
I said they are budget lenses for Nikon and Canon, and they were. They cost a lot less than the Canon or Nikon equivalents. Of course Pentax user paid hundreds more for the Pentax version. Pentax designed the optics, but the rest of the lens (construction and AF) were Tokina designs. The Pentax DA 12-24mm is a Tokina lens and now that the partnership has been dissolved it appears it will be discontinued. It has always been very hard to find, with Pentax sending small quantities here to the USA. Maybe in other parts of the world there is better availability.

Notice that the new Lens Road Map shows a new wide angle zoom in this range (12-24) for 2013? They probably no longer have access to the Tokina.

They also show a new DA* mid zoom. I would not be surprised if this is not a replacement for the DA* 16-50mm. It is probably the worst of the DA* lenses and ready for an update.
09-24-2012, 04:43 PM   #105
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What did Pentax answer from question about Full Frame????
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