Lens road map updated.

Caat · 01-31-2013, 02:41 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Because they will release the information when announcing them. Everyone does that.
Also, let's not forget these products are in development, specifications can change until the finished product.

If Pentax can't even show a prototype and if they are in development to the extent that the actual specifications are that subject to change they can't be due any time soon.

My point was that Pentax would benefit from showing mock ups or releasing specs (even if subject to change) because at the moment Pentax looks from the outside to be very much the same kind of company that constantly rehashed the *ist.

Kunzite · 01-31-2013, 03:24 AM

We are (still) in January; 11 months left of 2013.
It would be nice to see at least mock-ups, of course (they did that before, and in many cases the final products were different); what I'm saying is that if they don't do it it's not necessarily because they don't plan to launch them this year. I don't see much sense to show mock-ups of anything but special products, anyway.

Those people won't change their minds easily, so the only benefit is they'll see Pentax as "very much the same kind of company that constantly rehashed the *ist"... and shows only mock-ups

Caat · 01-31-2013, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

We are (still) in January; 11 months left of 2013.
It would be nice to see at least mock-ups, of course (they did that before, and in many cases the final products were different); what I'm saying is that if they don't do it it's not necessarily because they don't plan to launch them this year. I don't see much sense to show mock-ups of anything but special products, anyway.

Those people won't change their minds easily, so the only benefit is they'll see Pentax as "very much the same kind of company that constantly rehashed the *ist"... and shows only mock-ups

I understand that it doesn't mean they won't come this year. I just need to be able to plan my saving!

The only lens purchase that I *need* to make is to replace my DA *16-50 with something a bit longer and my K-7 is not quite as good as I'd like it to be.

Kunzite · 01-31-2013, 09:16 AM

Yeah, but our impatience won't change anything; we have no choice but to wait. Pentax Ricoh seems more secretive than Pentax-Hoya.
Save as much as you can, good things are coming

cali92rs · 01-31-2013, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Yeah, but our impatience won't change anything; we have no choice but to wait.

No choice?
There are a lot of companies out there that make real high quality gear. We have plenty of choices...unless you want to be married to a brand.
I sure don't...I have one wife and that is PLENTY.

**Rondec** · 01-31-2013, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by wildimages

I can see where eljamoquio is coming from. I went with a D7000 and 300 f4 plus 1.4 TC for just under 2800. If I had upgraded my k 20 to a k5II and bought a DA*300 I would have come in 8 bucks shy of 2600 and STILL not had a TC. . The 300 f4 is an fx lens and has a 5 year warranty. The 200 bucks more is worth it to me and if I go to FX later, I won't have to buy a new lens. That is brand new gear too, not used.

I'm keeping my k20 and wide limited lenses till the body dies. We'll see where Pentax is when that day comes, but I doubt we will be much further along.

Pentax is trying but life is too short to keep waiting, and I've pretty much given up on waiting.

Although, to be fair, you should compare the D7000 to the K5, which is still available new for 740-ish, meaning that the combination of DA *300 and it would be under 2000 (DA 300 is 1279 at Adorama right now when you add it to your shopping cart). The K5 II is a significantly newer camera than the D7000 and so, obviously is still selling for quite a bit more.

I understand that the TC not being present is a big deal to you. The best Pentax can offer currently would be the AF 1.7x TC, which runs 450-ish (used of course). But even with that, you would still be less than the 2800 dollars you quoted for the Nikon kit.

NitroDC · 01-31-2013, 10:15 AM

I am waiting for a new APS-C camera, not really excited for a full frame body because 1. It will probably be expensive, and 2. Most DA lenses don't support the FF image circle. If Pentax made a 24+ Mpixel APS-C with Focus Peaking, more AF points, and better video I would be all over that.

gazonk · 01-31-2013, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by NitroDC

I am waiting for a new APS-C camera, not really excited for a full frame body because 1. It will probably be expensive, and 2. Most DA lenses don't support the FF image circle. If Pentax made a 24+ Mpixel APS-C with Focus Peaking, more AF points, and better video I would be all over that.

Considering that you have the K20d you might want to have a look at the great K-5 offers right now instead of waiting. The K-5 was a huge step up for me from the K10d.

**boriscleto** · 01-31-2013, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

The K-5 was a huge step up for me from the K10d.

But the K-5 isn't nearly as big a step up from the K20D.

Kunzite · 01-31-2013, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by cali92rs

No choice?
There are a lot of companies out there that make real high quality gear. We have plenty of choices...unless you want to be married to a brand.
I sure don't...I have one wife and that is PLENTY.

I was talking about a different thing. Of course, we can chose another system, to keep our existing gear without buying anything else, and even to give up on photography. There are indeed plenty of such choices.
But the context was different - regardless of our impatience, Pentax will not release information they don't yet want to release. In this regard, we have no choice but to wait. It's not like us going to Nikon would make a new Pentax roadmap materialize, or something

ElJamoquio · 01-31-2013, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

That looks like using thin air to justify evaluating an unknown lens' performance. Sorry, I don't buy that; I still believe it's not over until the fat lady things (i.e. we have samples).

And next paragraph, do I spot a strawman? I never said the 560mm on an APS-C camera is better than an 800mm on a D600. It's you who claimed the latter is a lot better, it's you who claimed you don't expect the former to be "fantastic", without having a clue about how the Pentax lens performs.

I think you're discounting the science of optics a bit too much, but that's your prerogative, of course. It's certainly within the realm of imagination that the tolerances of this lens are an order of magnitude more stringent than the current best lenses on the market, and that it would perform much better on some high-megapixel-camera (like, for instance, the Q) than any camera on an 800mm lens.

I still don't understand the target market for this lens, but if it fits someone else's portfolio, great for them.

Kunzite · 01-31-2013, 11:23 AM

I'm not discounting anything, and no, there's no "science of optics" stating anything about "an order of magnitude", not if we're comparing APS-C with FF. What lens needs tolerances 10x as stringent than "the current best lenses on the market" and why? Come on, you're simply making up statement after statement, you can't convince me with that!

That's the issue here, your "a lot better" definitely belongs to the realm of imagination. It will remain there, until the 560mm's performance will become a known factor.

cali92rs · 01-31-2013, 11:42 AM

The lens may be a great performer, it may not be...
However at this price point, the price of a used car, the market for this lens is miniscule. Pentax shooters are already a small community, then you chop it even further due to its price and focal length. You have people balking at $1,000 31mm LTD, which is a very useful focal length for many. Most folks don't need a 560mm lens.
This is niche on top of niche.

Kunzite · 01-31-2013, 12:02 PM

I agree, the market is small - but let's think in perspective. I'd say:
- such lenses are required for the Pentax K to be regarded as a "serious" system, on the same level as the big 2. Without such "flagship" products, I don't think they can really grow.
- the small Pentax community "subset" willing to buy such expensive products must be kept, because they're the big spenders. Making them happy, and that small community will grow.
- the lens is supposed to be on the market for years, maybe what doesn't seem to make much sense now will make perfect sense later?

gazonk · 01-31-2013, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by boriscleto

But the K-5 isn't nearly as big a step up from the K20D.

Really? I guess the K20d had slightly better AF than the K10d, but you should see a vast improvement in low light performance, you get LV, video and electronic level. And you get the super smooth shutter. The shutter is just a delight, and I've become surprisingly dependent on the electronic level, which may be the second best feature for me after the low light performance.

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01-31-2013, 02:41 AM	#61
Caat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United Kingdom Photos: Albums Posts: 927	Originally posted by Kunzite Because they will release the information when announcing them. Everyone does that. Also, let's not forget these products are in development, specifications can change until the finished product. If Pentax can't even show a prototype and if they are in development to the extent that the actual specifications are that subject to change they can't be due any time soon. My point was that Pentax would benefit from showing mock ups or releasing specs (even if subject to change) because at the moment Pentax looks from the outside to be very much the same kind of company that constantly rehashed the *ist.

01-31-2013, 03:24 AM	#62
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	We are (still) in January; 11 months left of 2013. It would be nice to see at least mock-ups, of course (they did that before, and in many cases the final products were different); what I'm saying is that if they don't do it it's not necessarily because they don't plan to launch them this year. I don't see much sense to show mock-ups of anything but special products, anyway. Those people won't change their minds easily, so the only benefit is they'll see Pentax as "very much the same kind of company that constantly rehashed the *ist"... and shows only mock-ups

01-31-2013, 09:08 AM	#63
Caat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United Kingdom Photos: Albums Posts: 927	Originally posted by Kunzite We are (still) in January; 11 months left of 2013. It would be nice to see at least mock-ups, of course (they did that before, and in many cases the final products were different); what I'm saying is that if they don't do it it's not necessarily because they don't plan to launch them this year. I don't see much sense to show mock-ups of anything but special products, anyway. Those people won't change their minds easily, so the only benefit is they'll see Pentax as "very much the same kind of company that constantly rehashed the ist"... and shows only mock-ups I understand that it doesn't mean they won't come this year. I just need to be able to plan my saving! The only lens purchase that I need* to make is to replace my DA *16-50 with something a bit longer and my K-7 is not quite as good as I'd like it to be.

01-31-2013, 09:16 AM	#64
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Yeah, but our impatience won't change anything; we have no choice but to wait. Pentax Ricoh seems more secretive than Pentax-Hoya. Save as much as you can, good things are coming

01-31-2013, 09:58 AM	#65
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by Kunzite Yeah, but our impatience won't change anything; we have no choice but to wait. No choice? There are a lot of companies out there that make real high quality gear. We have plenty of choices...unless you want to be married to a brand. I sure don't...I have one wife and that is PLENTY.

01-31-2013, 10:07 AM	#66
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	Originally posted by wildimages I can see where eljamoquio is coming from. I went with a D7000 and 300 f4 plus 1.4 TC for just under 2800. If I had upgraded my k 20 to a k5II and bought a DA300 I would have come in 8 bucks shy of 2600 and STILL not had a TC. . The 300 f4 is an fx lens and has a 5 year warranty. The 200 bucks more is worth it to me and if I go to FX later, I won't have to buy a new lens. That is brand new gear too, not used. I'm keeping my k20 and wide limited lenses till the body dies. We'll see where Pentax is when that day comes, but I doubt we will be much further along. Pentax is trying but life is too short to keep waiting, and I've pretty much given up on waiting. Although, to be fair, you should compare the D7000 to the K5, which is still available new for 740-ish, meaning that the combination of DA 300 and it would be under 2000 (DA 300 is 1279 at Adorama right now when you add it to your shopping cart). The K5 II is a significantly newer camera than the D7000 and so, obviously is still selling for quite a bit more. I understand that the TC not being present is a big deal to you. The best Pentax can offer currently would be the AF 1.7x TC, which runs 450-ish (used of course). But even with that, you would still be less than the 2800 dollars you quoted for the Nikon kit.

01-31-2013, 10:15 AM	#67
NitroDC Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 342	I am waiting for a new APS-C camera, not really excited for a full frame body because 1. It will probably be expensive, and 2. Most DA lenses don't support the FF image circle. If Pentax made a 24+ Mpixel APS-C with Focus Peaking, more AF points, and better video I would be all over that.

01-31-2013, 10:21 AM	#68
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by NitroDC I am waiting for a new APS-C camera, not really excited for a full frame body because 1. It will probably be expensive, and 2. Most DA lenses don't support the FF image circle. If Pentax made a 24+ Mpixel APS-C with Focus Peaking, more AF points, and better video I would be all over that. Considering that you have the K20d you might want to have a look at the great K-5 offers right now instead of waiting. The K-5 was a huge step up for me from the K10d.

01-31-2013, 10:42 AM	#69
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,477	Originally posted by gazonk The K-5 was a huge step up for me from the K10d. But the K-5 isn't nearly as big a step up from the K20D.

01-31-2013, 10:51 AM	#70
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by cali92rs No choice? There are a lot of companies out there that make real high quality gear. We have plenty of choices...unless you want to be married to a brand. I sure don't...I have one wife and that is PLENTY. I was talking about a different thing. Of course, we can chose another system, to keep our existing gear without buying anything else, and even to give up on photography. There are indeed plenty of such choices. But the context was different - regardless of our impatience, Pentax will not release information they don't yet want to release. In this regard, we have no choice but to wait. It's not like us going to Nikon would make a new Pentax roadmap materialize, or something

01-31-2013, 10:56 AM	#71
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Kunzite That looks like using thin air to justify evaluating an unknown lens' performance. Sorry, I don't buy that; I still believe it's not over until the fat lady things (i.e. we have samples). And next paragraph, do I spot a strawman? I never said the 560mm on an APS-C camera is better than an 800mm on a D600. It's you who claimed the latter is a lot better, it's you who claimed you don't expect the former to be "fantastic", without having a clue about how the Pentax lens performs. I think you're discounting the science of optics a bit too much, but that's your prerogative, of course. It's certainly within the realm of imagination that the tolerances of this lens are an order of magnitude more stringent than the current best lenses on the market, and that it would perform much better on some high-megapixel-camera (like, for instance, the Q) than any camera on an 800mm lens. I still don't understand the target market for this lens, but if it fits someone else's portfolio, great for them.

01-31-2013, 11:23 AM	#72
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I'm not discounting anything, and no, there's no "science of optics" stating anything about "an order of magnitude", not if we're comparing APS-C with FF. What lens needs tolerances 10x as stringent than "the current best lenses on the market" and why? Come on, you're simply making up statement after statement, you can't convince me with that! That's the issue here, your "a lot better" definitely belongs to the realm of imagination. It will remain there, until the 560mm's performance will become a known factor.

01-31-2013, 11:42 AM	#73
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	The lens may be a great performer, it may not be... However at this price point, the price of a used car, the market for this lens is miniscule. Pentax shooters are already a small community, then you chop it even further due to its price and focal length. You have people balking at $1,000 31mm LTD, which is a very useful focal length for many. Most folks don't need a 560mm lens. This is niche on top of niche.

01-31-2013, 12:02 PM	#74
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I agree, the market is small - but let's think in perspective. I'd say: - such lenses are required for the Pentax K to be regarded as a "serious" system, on the same level as the big 2. Without such "flagship" products, I don't think they can really grow. - the small Pentax community "subset" willing to buy such expensive products must be kept, because they're the big spenders. Making them happy, and that small community will grow. - the lens is supposed to be on the market for years, maybe what doesn't seem to make much sense now will make perfect sense later?

01-31-2013, 01:09 PM	#75
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by boriscleto But the K-5 isn't nearly as big a step up from the K20D. Really? I guess the K20d had slightly better AF than the K10d, but you should see a vast improvement in low light performance, you get LV, video and electronic level. And you get the super smooth shutter. The shutter is just a delight, and I've become surprisingly dependent on the electronic level, which may be the second best feature for me after the low light performance.