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09-28-2012, 08:59 AM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
The K-5 II & IIs were a good holding move. The advanced amateur competition is static for now (D7000, D300S, 60D, 7D), which gives Pentax some breathing room. The K-30 was a coup. Now they just need the basic K-300, advanced K-3, and Ricoh MILC.
That's assuming there even will be a D400 or 7DII, two massive, expensive APS-C camera lines with the same image quality as entry level DSLRs and MILCs but now $300 short of full blown FF. these were the lines Pentax used to undercut, but Pentax may find itself competing $ for $ with just the D8000 and 70D for APS-C as they find themselves having no answer (or fight) above that.

QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
- DXO shows the Panasonics have reached parity with the four year old K20D. The OM5 has reached the level of the three year old K-x.
- Pentax needs a K-300 to compete with other makers' lower price levels.
- We've already established that Pentax is not the Pro brand. OTOH, at least you could do a pro shoot with a Pentax DSLR. Shooting pro sports or a wedding with a NEX would get you laughed out of the place. But I'm talking about people like most of us on this forum, who own a DSLR because it's the most well-rounded performer. We do shoot birds, wildlife and sports. I bet most here would be horrified at the thought of trading a DSLR for a NEX. Pentax users mostly came to the brand for specific reasons, and carefully researched their choice. Sure some will leave, but as long as more come, it's a win. I like Pentax's prospects, especiallly with the sales the potential in countries and entire continents where they don't even compete currently.
DXO compares the OM-D to the current model Canon 60D, DPreview says you have to go to FF to see any appreciable difference in image quality in their OM-D review, and the K-5 will be three years old soon too btw.

As people are fond of saying (but only when it comes to FF apparently), "the people here" are an infinitesimal slice of the market. Keeping us happy and *only* us happy will assure there will never be "more" coming. Why would they? All those things you say we shoot can be done on other brands DSLRs just fine (with better AF), but now with the promise and ability to grow into the benefits FF at a later date. Outside of just PF, demand for FF in the market is pretty clear, Why would a researching budding photographer not see APS-C-only DSLRs as a dead end?


Last edited by illdefined; 09-28-2012 at 09:20 AM.
09-28-2012, 09:00 AM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Yes, with lenses mounted!
Nice, you are now using the Sony. Get back to the Fuji - those guys actually know how to build lenses. And then show me a 24/1.4 or a 35/1.4 on both.
09-28-2012, 09:03 AM - 1 Like   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Mecrox, we certainly live in different worlds. If I had to use a phone or tablet, I'd quit photography. I am not joking. I have a camera in my BlackBerry Curve. It's a miserable and pathetic way to take a photo.
I think there is always this confusion between people that take photos and those that are interested in photography. The latter will always want dedicated equipment optimized for their hobby, not an accessory to a generic device.
09-28-2012, 09:18 AM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
This sort of example seems to make the NEX7 an all time winner, but in reality, all cameras are a compromise.
Somethings got to be left out or done in another way.
1. No SR
2. No WR
3. Poor edges in picture IQ unless using the 16mp sensor on NEX3,5,6.
4. EVF for the good and/or bad.
5. Different build standard.
6. Some lenses, the NEX ones are obviously overgrown on the body.
7. Are they even the same in optical quality (ie. like true optical corrections for CA and distortions?)


The two cameras presented are just different.
Just choose the tool according to your needs.
The NEX-7 is actually pretty well built. Solid chunk of metal, and while its not weathersealed the OM-D is...with an excellent IBIS btw..

All the size comparisons proved was that mirrorless are much smaller than DSLRs. They also have comparable image quality and are competing for the same dollar. It's simply not a DSLR-only world anymore. If people want a bigger camera in the name of image quality, why not jump to FF? Or at least a system that would allow you to start an FF lens collection now and still use them later?

Mirrorless wins at "good enough" and FF wins at "better than the rest", is being squeezed hard somewhere vaguely in-between there really a place Pentax can prosper?


Last edited by illdefined; 09-28-2012 at 09:27 AM.
09-28-2012, 09:35 AM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
I think there is always this confusion between people that take photos and those that are interested in photography. The latter will always want dedicated equipment optimized for their hobby, not an accessory to a generic device.
Lol, we all know that here. But huge numbers of folks just want a camera to record something special to them - holidays, kids, big events. In fact, without it and the vast numbers of cams which get sold on the back of it, the camera industry would starve. I was just speculating on what the future may hold for camera-makers. The healthier they are, the better cams and lenses we will have to choose from. All the big consumer high tech changes of the past few years seem to come down to the same thing: software over hardware - perfect the software, surround it with a patent barrier, turn the hardware suppliers into slaves. So if not enough folks under 30 continue to buy into photography because the camera-makers won't buy into IT, the rush today into bigger ''n' better FF everything is really just a rush into becoming a bigger and better slave. Software and silicon not glass and mag alloy may turn out to be the decisive factors. But what do I know. My next camera or second camera may easily be the Sigma DP2 Merrill precisely because it promises to be every bit as unpredictable and difficult to source as a Pentax. Using non-Bayer sensors though not necessarily the Foveon to increase quality without having to move up to FF is something else Pentax might be looking at. In fact I'd be amazed if they weren't. And if it was a Foveon done right by Pentax's techs and Pentax were canny, they might get a fantastic deal on some rebadged Sigma-originated lenses to go with it. Just a dream, perhaps a nightmare, but an APS-C 24-mp non-Bayer sensor with huge resolving power but still good DR and high ISO abilities might give some folks pause. The K5IIs could be a one-off or a trial run for something more ambitious.

Last edited by mecrox; 09-28-2012 at 09:59 AM.
09-28-2012, 10:00 AM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
That's assuming there even will be a D400 or 7DII, two massive, expensive APS-C camera lines with the same image quality as entry level DSLRs and MILCs but now $300 short of full blown FF. these were the lines Pentax used to undercut, but Pentax may find itself competing $ for $ with just the D8000 and 70D for APS-C as they find themselves having no answer (or fight) above that.
IQ is not everything. The 7D and 300S are miles above entry level in features. If you have a look at Fred Miranda or DPR Forums, you will see that these are immensely popular models and users are expecting an upgrage. This is not a dying segment.

QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
DXO compares the OM-D to the current model Canon 60D, DPreview says you have to go to FF to see any appreciable difference in image quality in their OM-D review, and the K-5 will be three years old soon too btw.
Canon sensors are weak right now and Sony is strong. The K-5 is a solid advanced amateur and the K-3 will compete with the new models when they hit. and Anyway, there's more to a camera than DXO scores. DSLR is what most people want still. I've never seen anyone with an OM-D.

QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
As people are fond of saying (but only when it comes to FF apparently), "the people here" are an infinitesimal slice of the market. Keeping us happy and *only* us happy will assure there will never be "more" coming. Why would they? All those things you say we shoot can be done on other brands DSLRs just fine (with better AF), but now with the promise and ability to grow into the benefits FF at a later date. Outside of just PF, demand for FF in the market is pretty clear, Why would a researching budding photographer not see APS-C-only DSLRs as a dead end?
Pentax says the K-5-II has the best AF of any comparable camera. I don't doubt it.

Most people see APS-C DSLR as a huge cost when moving up from p&s. They agonize over prices under $1K. No one is going to jump from compact to FF at $3K with lens. They will look at MILC and DSLR and most will choose a basic DSLR.
09-28-2012, 10:09 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
I've never seen anyone with an OM-D.
I've never seen anyone with a Pentax DSLR, except the friends that I convinced to purchase it. I know there are Pentax users in my area - our paths just never cross.

Anyway, starting from next week I'll see someone with an OM-D every day
09-28-2012, 10:31 AM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
I've never seen anyone with a Pentax DSLR, except the friends that I convinced to purchase it. I know there are Pentax users in my area - our paths just never cross.

Anyway, starting from next week I'll see someone with an OM-D every day
I see Pentax shooters quite regularly, probably because the local Henry's has product on the shelves and at least one of the sales reps is a Pentax shooter.



They sell Olympus too, but not many OM-D's I suspect.

PS The photo was a sample from my Q test and I had nothing to process the raw with except Picasa.


Last edited by audiobomber; 09-28-2012 at 11:01 AM.
09-28-2012, 10:54 AM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
I see Pentax shooters quite regularly, probably because the local Henry's has product on the shelves and at least one of the sales reps is a Pentax shooter.
That helps. I have to drive for almost 30min to get to the closest store that has a Pentax DSLR.

Although, I now remember I did see someone with a Pentax camera once. It was the gentleman that purchased my FA 31 and he had a *istDS. But that was not a chance encounter
09-28-2012, 11:43 AM   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
I see Pentax shooters quite regularly, probably because the local Henry's has product on the shelves and at least one of the sales reps is a Pentax shooter.



They sell Olympus too, but not many OM-D's I suspect.

PS The photo was a sample from my Q test and I had nothing to process the raw with except Picasa.
You are a cruel, cruel man.
09-28-2012, 11:55 AM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
You are a cruel, cruel man.
Sorry, I had to post evidence, because I thought Americans wouldn't believe me.
09-28-2012, 11:57 AM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Sorry, I had to post evidence, because I thought Americans wouldn't believe me.
Oh I believe you. I've spoken with Pentax Canada, nice chaps, really dedicated to encouraging the adoption of Pentax, and they want to help. It's just such a contrast.......
09-28-2012, 12:06 PM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Sorry, I had to post evidence, because I thought Americans wouldn't believe me.
If you were in Florida, I still wouldn't believe you.
09-28-2012, 12:22 PM   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
IQ is not everything. The 7D and 300S are miles above entry level in features. If you have a look at Fred Miranda or DPR Forums, you will see that these are immensely popular models and users are expecting an upgrage. This is not a dying segment.
Whoa, IQ isn't everything? Holy argument flip Batman. Tell that to the countless posters here who hang on to that 1 DxO point over the D7000 or NEX or whatever for dear LIFE (which DxO even admits is within the margin of error), than casually dismiss DxO when FF inevitably comes around. The sensor was never Pentax's innovation to begin with, it was Sony's....

And again, NO forum represents the majority of the camera buying public. I guess we'll see what the big two do with their APS-C lines early next year, but I think there's a reason the D7000 wasn't called the D95 and the D300s is now going on four years old. Nikon planned the D600 well in advance and merged those two APS-C lines together.

QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Canon sensors are weak right now and Sony is strong. The K-5 is a solid advanced amateur and the K-3 will compete with the new models when they hit. and Anyway, there's more to a camera than DXO scores. DSLR is what most people want still. I've never seen anyone with an OM-D.
Again your sample size is awfully limited. I'm not sure where you live but here in NYC there are Pens and NEXes galore. I've only seen a couple OM-Ds so far, but for a long while they were impossible to get due to high demand, I still think its hard. Absolutely zero Pentax. yet, I know they exist. No city is enough to judge an entire global market, not even NYC.

QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Pentax says the K-5-II has the best AF of any comparable camera. I don't doubt it.

Most people see APS-C DSLR as a huge cost when moving up from p&s. They agonize over prices under $1K. No one is going to jump from compact to FF at $3K with lens. They will look at MILC and DSLR and most will choose a basic DSLR.
Really? You don't doubt Pentax's AF claim? It's the same 11 massively large points that have long frustrated Pentax users, only they're brighter now. An improvement sure, but better than Nikon's 39 continuously tracking points?

You've made a lot of assumptions in this post, like 'most' people prefer DSLRs or that the $1k OM-D must be a failure because you haven't personally seen one in your town or that Pentax now has the best AF..... You can wait for next year's sales numbers to prove your theories if you wish, but Pentax definitely can't afford to wait if it has any plans to stay relevant in this industry.

Last edited by illdefined; 09-28-2012 at 12:38 PM.
09-28-2012, 12:52 PM   #165
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Interesting post, illdefined. You don't like my assumptions but are very free with yours. Especially when they are anti-Pentax. Yes, we shall see.
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