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10-11-2012, 03:54 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't think there is any point in a stripped down, "cheap" full frame camera. The cheapest Canon Rebel out there has more features than the K1000 had and how much cost is actually reduced by not putting software on the camera (that already exists).

People who want cheap will continue to gravitate towards APS-C and they won't really care either, that the sensor is smaller than "full frame." However, they are exactly the sort of people who want as much automation as possible, want a green mode that they will leave it in all of the time. As to there being a big market for photography classes for a stripped down full frame camera, I doubt it. There is no way that the price in the current market could be under 1500 dollars, even if you cut just about everything but the sensor. That's way too much for a student to spend on an introductory class.
Very interesting. I live in a university town with several tens of thousands of students from all over the world, it's a particularly international mix. What interests the ones who are really really into photography, the ones who will be tomorrow's professionals, are big old 6 x 7, 6 x 6, etc, etc analogue cameras. These are the big (and, let's face it, superbly made) cameras they can actually get their hands on, perhaps even afford or simply rustle up from the back of a dusty old uni lab cupboard. Ten thousand buck full frame suites are completely off the planet, because they are students. And they love analogue and everything about it. So, my guess is that you wouldn't need to offer classes for a stripped down full frame camera but just for a big old unstripped even fuller frame number. You'll get the folks who are really interested in photography and by the time they go on to acquire cameras of their own, in a few years, chances are IT advances will have changed the landscape again out of all recognition. My feeling is that the up and coming generation really get far better than some of us do that whatever you aim at and whatever you buy is only a moving target and will soon have been replaced by something better anyway (let's be optimistic here).


Last edited by mecrox; 10-11-2012 at 04:02 AM.
10-11-2012, 04:18 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
The desire for a basic, manual focus full frame fits in with what many of us who may not be looking for the highest end model (or who may be interested in both) would like to have available. I know photography classes still exist. A digital K1000 would be great for introductory classes.
Our school district has a nationally competitive journalism department - newspaper and yearbook. My daughter started with a K1000 in 1999, at High School, rising through the photography track to Yearbook Photography Editor, then Editor in Chief. It really is a great program. My KX went to college with her and all over the western US in her vacations - she works for a network news department now.

In 2003 they dropped film altogether and used the chemicals and paper savings to go digital.

This year, recognizing their photojournalists couldn't expose proper images, they got the K1000's out of the closet, cleaned the darkrooms and started teaching basic photography again.

I agree with everything you've written. Unfortunately there isn't a real consumer market for an inexpensive digital K1000. Camera companies don't make manual focus lenses any more. They don't make great viewfinders. Electronic aids have no cost. At the price point you imagine that slot is owned by smart phones and maybe fixed lens cameras.

The best teaching tool to replace a K1000 is, well, a K1000.

Last edited by monochrome; 10-11-2012 at 09:30 AM.
10-11-2012, 04:50 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Our school district has a nationally competitive journalism department - newspaper and yearbook. My daughter started with a K1000 in 2001, at High School, rising through the photography track to Yearbook Photography Editor, then Editor in Chief. It really is a great program. My KX went to college with her and all over the western US in her vacations - she works for a network news department now.

In 2003 they dropped film altogether and used the chemicals and paper savings to go digital.

This year, recognizing their photojournalists couldn't expose proper images, they got the K1000's out of the closet, cleaned the darkrooms and started teaching basic photography again.

I agree with everything you've written. Unfortunately there isn't a real consumer market for an inexpensive digital K1000. Camera companies don't make manual focus lenses any more. They don't make great viewfinders. Electronic aids have no cost. At the price point you imagine that slot is owned by smart phones and maybe fixed lens cameras.

The best teaching tool to replace a K1000 is, well, a K1000.
I agree with you and Fuent completely. Imagine how small but sturdy a digital K1000 could be, with manual lenses, no af motors anywhere, no SR, and a very good EVF. No LCD, picture review could be done in EVF too. I drool more from this then one of those fully featured autopilot-cams.
10-11-2012, 09:39 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I agree with you and Fuent completely. Imagine how small but sturdy a digital K1000 could be, with manual lenses, no af motors anywhere, no SR, and a very good EVF. No LCD, picture review could be done in EVF too. I drool more from this then one of those fully featured autopilot-cams.
Imagine setting ISO to a fixed number and using knobs to adjust Ev, Av and Sv all by yourself. Actually putting filters on the front of the lens (other than ND filters).

WTH. A good film body is so cheap and the sensor is already 24x36.


(all in good fun.)

10-11-2012, 11:32 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Imagine setting ISO to a fixed number and using knobs to adjust Ev, Av and Sv all by yourself. Actually putting filters on the front of the lens (other than ND filters).

WTH. A good film body is so cheap and the sensor is already 24x36.


(all in good fun.)
I know what you are trying tell me. But for me the only thing that sucks on a K1000 is the film. I would instabuy the APSC version of the camera we described.
10-11-2012, 11:44 AM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I know what you are trying tell me. But for me the only thing that sucks on a K1000 is the film. I would instabuy the APSC version of the camera we described.
your OVF would be a lot smaller than you remember on the K1000..
10-11-2012, 12:45 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
your OVF would be a lot smaller than you remember on the K1000..
Nope...

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I agree with you and Fuent completely. Imagine how small but sturdy a digital K1000 could be, with manual lenses, no af motors anywhere, no SR, and a very good EVF. No LCD, picture review could be done in EVF too. I drool more from this then one of those fully featured autopilot-cams.
10-11-2012, 01:16 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I know what you are trying tell me. But for me the only thing that sucks on a K1000 is the film. I would instabuy the APSC version of the camera we described.
This. Actually this x1,000. Yeah, I loved my K1000. The lack of features was the feature. There was basically nothing to break, nothing to help you, nothing to get in your way. The only camera I've ever owned that I could throw, drop, or fight a dog with and still have it work to take pictures (hey, you're young and trespassing, sh!t happens).

I actually bought a film scanner a couple of years ago and started shooting XP2 so I could get he film turned around quick, because I was tired of DSLRs. Bought an ME Super in the market and it became my pocket camera for a bit; it's a great camera, but has those stupid late 70's push buttons. The shooting experience was great, the size was great, the images were great, film sucks. Hard. Also it made me sad on how sloppy my technique had gotten in the age of bracketing and IS.

Offer an elemental SLR with digital media? Just shut up and take my money.

10-11-2012, 01:28 PM   #99
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Custom made cameras are expensive
10-11-2012, 01:34 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Nope...
ah, EVF. sounds more and more like a stripped down, K-Mount OM-D....what the K-01 should have been...

Last edited by illdefined; 10-11-2012 at 01:39 PM.
10-11-2012, 01:36 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
This year, recognizing their photojournalists couldn't expose proper images, they got the K1000's out of the closet, cleaned the darkrooms and started teaching basic photography again.
That is an amazing story.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I agree with everything you've written. Unfortunately there isn't a real consumer market for an inexpensive digital K1000. Camera companies don't make manual focus lenses any more.
It's interesting that you mentioned the lack of a consumer market. I do think there would be a niche consumer market, but also...I have always envisioned such a camera as a big business to business camera: I would guess that schools would be interested in buying them. Especially fine and commercial arts schools.

There are, of course a few lens makers making manual lenses...Zeiss, Samyang, Voigtlander, Peleng(?), Leica, etc. I see your point about camera makers not making them any more. However, my guess is that, with the success of Samyang and the prevalence of DSLR filmmaking, more companies may start manufacturing manual lenses.
10-11-2012, 01:44 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I know what you are trying tell me. But for me the only thing that sucks on a K1000 is the film. I would instabuy the APSC version of the camera we described.
Funny, IMO the most crappy thing in current DSLR in the D. Put film in those and they're nearly perfect
10-11-2012, 02:18 PM   #103
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@Fuent: I sponsor and teach a co-ed group of teenagers who self-direct in outdoor activities. Many of them attend the High School my children did. I brought along my K10D, K-01 and KX with some representative lenses in a veteran Domke bag just recently, which prompted a Junior to:
  • Really examine the KX and the K lenses relative to the K1000's and M50/2's they're using.
    • Leading to the Photography story.
      • Photography is taught as one track in the Art curriculum; Photojournalism is co-instructed as a combined Art/Business curriculum credit with a Photography 1 prerequisite. Newspaper/Yearbook is a Curriculum choice, not an extra-curricular activity.
  • Push (with permission) every button and menu item on the digitals
  • Express amazement at the pancake DA40Ltd.
  • Ask to use the K10 - DA40 for the day. I got out a backup 2Gb card, Sharpied her name on it, showed her M / GB and Av, put a couple MF K lenses in a messenger bag and let her go. The results were interesting - 80% keepers, which was really good for her psyche.
My best guess is the Crew Activity Committee will present some sort of photography activity or track for Spring Planning next month. I let them do thier own and I don't stick my head into it (adults comment, assist, provide signatures on contracts and credit cards and provide proper safety and chaperoning oversight; everything else is totally youth directed).

Well everyone this has been the best discussion I've had on the Forum in 2012. Literally!! Insightful, respectful (aside from my choice of the word abomination above) between people with a passion for photographing - this has been like the old days.



Cool!

Last edited by monochrome; 10-11-2012 at 02:24 PM.
10-11-2012, 04:33 PM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Well everyone this has been the best discussion I've had on the Forum in 2012. Literally!! Insightful, respectful (aside from my choice of the word abomination above) between people with a passion for photographing - this has been like the old days.
I agree! This has been a great discussion.
10-11-2012, 11:54 PM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
ah, EVF. sounds more and more like a stripped down, K-Mount OM-D....what the K-01 should have been...
A really good EVF, I presume? The OMG and the NEX-7 are expensive cameras, much because of their reasonably good state-of-the-art VFs. It would be beyond stupid to construct a camera around a very expensive sensor and an expensive VF, and then add a super simple exposure measurement system (the MX had a much more advanced one) and basically nothing else.

The OM-D is not a reborn OM-1, it's a reborn OM-2, a camera miraculously advanced for its time, which introduced TTL off-the-film auto exposure which the LX copied. The OM-D also is a technical little wonder with cool features like the live view bulb mode, the coolest thing since the OM-2 introduced TTL long auto exposures.
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