K20D Price drop

WendyB · 02-13-2008, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by wlachan

3 months to 900.

Wanna make a bet It wont go below 1190? It would be nice but wont happen till ,,,,, I cant tell you why

Kaimarx · 02-13-2008, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by WendyB

Wanna make a bet It wont go below 1190? It would be nice but wont happen till ,,,,, I cant tell you why

Sounds pretty good if Pentax can pull it off...Canon's and Nikons models manage to retain their pricing structures well after launching down here so it was abit of a surprise to see the K10 fall so quickly last year. Though good for us it doesn't do much for resale value. As high as the Samsung is in the US i highly doubt they will remain there for very long. Keep an eye out for a sly cut and slash down the line.

regken · 02-13-2008, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by WendyB

Wanna make a bet It wont go below 1190? It would be nice but wont happen till ,,,,, I cant tell you why

I promised myself I wasn't going to jump in on this but can't help myself. 1190 doesn't make any marketing sense unless every review on the net, yes including our beloved Phil, rates it above the Canon 40D in every category including AF speed. That camera is already down to $1150. The limited brand recognition of Pentax puts them at a price disadvantage. Talk all you want about IQ but for an overwhelming share of the market the 40D has "Good enough" IQ. In marketing the truth is unimportant, it's what is perceived to be the truth that counts.

Pentax needs to hit about 7 million units this year and without a bottom entry level product they will be hard pressed to do that unless the K20D takes off big time. My guess is panic will set in about 45 days after it hits the shelves and we will start to see a deterioration of price down to the $850- $900 level.

So yes Wendy, I'll take the bet. 10 pounds of fresh Maine lobster against 10 pounds of Lafiatte Coney Island hot dogs ( Detroit's finest)? 120 days after it hits the shelves whoever is closest wins, $1,190 verses $900.

P.S. First units sold in the U.S. Feb. 21. That makes June 20 the bet end date. Buydig or Beach Camera are reputable online sellers so let's make their price the deciding factor.

Regards,

Ken

lock2nl · 02-13-2008, 06:53 AM

I can only add to this by saying that the K20d started with a retail price of €1299 over here (body only). You can now pre-order it for about €1100,- and there is one retailer offering a deal for €1019,- !
The camera is expected in six weeks time and it's already dropping in price. This happened with the k10d as well. The first prices mentioned were about €1000,- as a pre-order. In December delivery really started and by then it already dropped to €900,- Around 1st of March the average price was about €850, three months after the sales really got going. That's a 15% drop.
When the k10d came out, at first nobody actually knew where to put this camera. Was it in the same league as the 400d or A100 ? Or more likely 30d and D200 ? Or D80 ? In the end quality was higher compared to the cheaper models. But pricewise it was cheaper than the similar 30d and the d200.
Today this sales market is much more crowded than a year ago. Nikon simply
changed the d40 into a d60 with some extra gimicks, and Sony has got a whole range of new ones (A300/A350/A700/A900). Also, Oly has stepped into the market with in body AS etc. with new models like the E510. Prices of these models are dropping steadily. THe E3 has been dropping in price a well, with an average of €150,- over the past two months (10% of the initial price).
Canon has got the 40D but runs it a prices below €1000,- already, and the lower ranged 450d is aiming at €650,- at the moment. We are awaiting the Nikon D90, while the older models like the D80 and D200 have just been reduced in price. And I have mentioned the price of the GX-20 ? As I said it's getting very crowded overthere...
Ned B. told us Pentax is going for the niche. Specific groups of users, and camera's adressing the needs of those users. Waterproof P&S and DSLR's, with a number of features meant for a specific group of users: like the Subaru car brand. Unfortunately, many of these features are found in the cameras of the others brands by now. Weather sealing, ant-dust, anti-shake with high quality sensors...you really will not get a bad camera if you buy a A700. Of course some users will go for the TAv on the new K20d, color adjustment of the lcd screen in stead of a swivel one with more pixels or a fully programmable raw-button. But my conclusion is that Pentax has become less unique than they tend to believe themselves. Based on this, and the fact that growth in sales will come from the P&S compact user going to basic or more advanced amateur DSLRs, that's where the battle of the prices is fought. And as i said, overlooking this entire market, it's getting crowdy....

Most of the innovation money in the k20d is stuffed in the cmos-sensor. The rest is cosmetics and patch work/small additions (apart from the semi live view). The Savox III is still there, and many gimmicks are mostly software based and combined with a hardware step back from 22-bit to 14/12- bit. Surely, it's more complete than the k10d, and it does have a superior low noise high iso profile. For the rest, its just 10 more than the k10d...and still a great camera !

Of course Pentax may try to keep the prices high to increase profits and 'status'. But my prediction is that the k20d story won't be much different from the k10d. In fact, the price drop has already started and it may very well go down faster than the k10d price considering the huge competition ....

lock

Last edited by lock2nl; 05-13-2008 at 11:26 AM.

falconeye · 02-13-2008, 07:33 AM

Price, of course, is mainly a function of offer and demand.

All depends now where the photo magazines in the respective countries put the K20D in their reviews.

If K20D wins all tests because of its impressive IQ ("editor's choice"), demand will be high and so will the price.

If K20D does so-so in the tests because live view is slow or what else..., demand will be lower and so will the price.

So, watch out for the verdict in the first comparison tests being published in your country. Then you will know too when "your price" is being made available

thibs · 02-13-2008, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by lock2nl

combined with a hardware step back from 22-bit to 14/12- bit. lock

Huh.. marketing stepback, maybe...

dlee · 02-13-2008, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by davemdsn

I spent about 4 years working in a camera store, which is how I got much of my gear over the years. Let me tell you that the retail mark up on digital cameras is not what it was on film cameras. Retailers are lucky to get 10-12% on most DSLRs. They really don't have much room to discount the cameras. Places like B&H sell it for less because they get a price reduction for buying in larger quantities. The real price reductions happen at the distributor/manufacturer level. Significant price reductions are directly in Hoya/Pentax's hands.

And (in this store) we're *still* working on 10-12% mark up.

David

mattdm · 02-13-2008, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by WendyB

Wanna make a bet It wont go below 1190? It would be nice but wont happen till ,,,,, I cant tell you why

Hmmm, is it because of a top-secret government database you're privy to which "proved" that the turns-out-they-were-legit K20D Dubai images were from a K100D?

jeffkrol · 02-13-2008, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by regken

I promised myself I wasn't going to jump in on this but can't help myself. 1190 doesn't make any marketing sense unless every review on the net, yes including our beloved Phil, rates it above the Canon 40D in every category including AF speed. That camera is already down to $1150.

Regards,

Ken

Think "that ship has sailed" already.....

Re: No surprise: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/20728-pop-photo-k20d-review.html

regken · 02-13-2008, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by jeffkrol

Think "that ship has sailed" already.....

Re: No surprise: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/20728-pop-photo-k20d-review.html

Yep! $900 here we come.

Anastigmat · 02-22-2008, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by noblepa

While Hoya has said that they would like to see Pentax produce higher margins, what they really want are profits. They're not stupid. Is it better to see $100 profit (each) on 10,000 cameras, or $50 profit on 100,000 cameras sold?

They will do what it takes to maximize total profits. That means that they will try to balance price (high margins) and units sold (low price). They will try to analyse the unexpected success of the K10D and use that knowledge to maximize margins without sacrificing units sold.

That said, I do agree that the K20D will probably never sell for $600.

Paul Noble

Profits will be higher than $100 per camera for sure. The sensor in the K20D should cost about the same as the one in the K10D, since both are APS-C in size. The price difference between the K10D and K20D is really all gravy. So, potentially, the K20D price can be lowered to the same level as the K10D and it will still be profitable. But will it be lowered to that level, ever? Well, that would depend on market conditions, specifically on how much competitive models are sold for. Sony has a 14mp APS-C camera of its own, the A350, which should give the K20D some competition. When the K30D, probably with the same sensor but faster AF and faster frame rate, is introduced, the K20D price will probably fall.

janneman · 02-22-2008, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by lock2nl

I can only add to this by saying that the K20d started with a retail price of €1299 over here (body only). You can now pre-order it for about €1100,- and there is one retailer offering a deal for €1019,- !
lock

even € 995,00, body only, now

Originally posted by davemdsn

I spent about 4 years working in a camera store, which is how I got much of my gear over the years. Let me tell you that the retail mark up on digital cameras is not what it was on film cameras. Retailers are lucky to get 10-12% on most DSLRs. They really don't have much room to discount the cameras. Places like B&H sell it for less because they get a price reduction for buying in larger quantities. The real price reductions happen at the distributor/manufacturer level. Significant price reductions are directly in Hoya/Pentax's hands.

Also, a $50 price reduction won't increase sales by ten fold. Would be nice if it did, but it doesn't.

That being said, I do hope for a bit if a reduction by it's release, but I won't be holding my breath.

So that makes me believe Samsung is actually maing a loss in order to get into the DSLR market?? And is that the reason why we see so few Samsung in the shop??? No profit for retailers?

lol101 · 02-22-2008, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by WendyB

Wanna make a bet It wont go below 1190? It would be nice but wont happen till ,,,,, I cant tell you why

List price in Europe is 1299 euros. You can find it already near the 1100 euro limit and it's not even out yet.

My bet is that is 6 month, it will be a very nice 899 euros body.

What Iam betting is ... well 899!!

It's kind of a reversed bet: if I am right, I'll lose the money!

janneman · 02-23-2008, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by lol101

List price in Europe is 1299 euros. You can find it already near the 1100 euro limit and it's not even out yet.

My bet is that is 6 month, it will be a very nice 899 euros body.

What Iam betting is ... well 899!!

It's kind of a reversed bet: if I am right, I'll lose the money!

Seen it for € 995,00 (body only ) already...

SteveNunez · 02-23-2008, 12:31 PM

I have yet to see a DSLR surpass the IQ of the medim-high end Canon's- if this K20D can do so that would be a feat in itself.
Mind you I have a K10D and like it allot- but I've also owned many high end DSLR's (D1X, EOS 1D MarkIIN etc..) and aside from the Sigma SD14's Foveon sensor, the Canon's CMOS sensor produces the best image quality.
I think my draw to Pentax was the feeling of shooting with a camera with "very good" image quality yet not the "popular" N or C brands.....a feeling of shooting something more "exotic or unique" in the DSLR kingdom. The K10D has some very good features I really like as well as in-camera processing etc that made me take notice and buy a Pentax. I have noticed however that there's more limitations to using the Pentax when compared to N or C....but I'm gonna give the Pentax a though using and see what I can produce with it.........that's the Pentax draw for me.......if the new K20D proves to have Canon-like IQ I'll buy one!

02-13-2008, 06:34 AM	#33
regken Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangor, Maine Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,377	It's a bet Originally posted by WendyB Wanna make a bet It wont go below 1190? It would be nice but wont happen till ,,,,, I cant tell you why I promised myself I wasn't going to jump in on this but can't help myself. 1190 doesn't make any marketing sense unless every review on the net, yes including our beloved Phil, rates it above the Canon 40D in every category including AF speed. That camera is already down to $1150. The limited brand recognition of Pentax puts them at a price disadvantage. Talk all you want about IQ but for an overwhelming share of the market the 40D has "Good enough" IQ. In marketing the truth is unimportant, it's what is perceived to be the truth that counts. Pentax needs to hit about 7 million units this year and without a bottom entry level product they will be hard pressed to do that unless the K20D takes off big time. My guess is panic will set in about 45 days after it hits the shelves and we will start to see a deterioration of price down to the $850- $900 level. So yes Wendy, I'll take the bet. 10 pounds of fresh Maine lobster against 10 pounds of Lafiatte Coney Island hot dogs ( Detroit's finest)? 120 days after it hits the shelves whoever is closest wins, $1,190 verses $900. P.S. First units sold in the U.S. Feb. 21. That makes June 20 the bet end date. Buydig or Beach Camera are reputable online sellers so let's make their price the deciding factor. Regards, Ken Last edited by regken; 02-23-2008 at 09:11 AM.

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02-13-2008, 12:41 AM	#31
WendyB Inactive Account Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Grosse Pointe Farms, Michigan Posts: 189	Originally posted by wlachan 3 months to 900. Wanna make a bet It wont go below 1190? It would be nice but wont happen till ,,,,, I cant tell you why

02-13-2008, 01:22 AM	#32
Kaimarx Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Auckland Photos: Gallery Posts: 452	Originally posted by WendyB Wanna make a bet It wont go below 1190? It would be nice but wont happen till ,,,,, I cant tell you why Sounds pretty good if Pentax can pull it off...Canon's and Nikons models manage to retain their pricing structures well after launching down here so it was abit of a surprise to see the K10 fall so quickly last year. Though good for us it doesn't do much for resale value. As high as the Samsung is in the US i highly doubt they will remain there for very long. Keep an eye out for a sly cut and slash down the line.

02-13-2008, 06:53 AM	#34
lock2nl Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 48	I can only add to this by saying that the K20d started with a retail price of €1299 over here (body only). You can now pre-order it for about €1100,- and there is one retailer offering a deal for €1019,- ! The camera is expected in six weeks time and it's already dropping in price. This happened with the k10d as well. The first prices mentioned were about €1000,- as a pre-order. In December delivery really started and by then it already dropped to €900,- Around 1st of March the average price was about €850, three months after the sales really got going. That's a 15% drop. When the k10d came out, at first nobody actually knew where to put this camera. Was it in the same league as the 400d or A100 ? Or more likely 30d and D200 ? Or D80 ? In the end quality was higher compared to the cheaper models. But pricewise it was cheaper than the similar 30d and the d200. Today this sales market is much more crowded than a year ago. Nikon simply changed the d40 into a d60 with some extra gimicks, and Sony has got a whole range of new ones (A300/A350/A700/A900). Also, Oly has stepped into the market with in body AS etc. with new models like the E510. Prices of these models are dropping steadily. THe E3 has been dropping in price a well, with an average of €150,- over the past two months (10% of the initial price). Canon has got the 40D but runs it a prices below €1000,- already, and the lower ranged 450d is aiming at €650,- at the moment. We are awaiting the Nikon D90, while the older models like the D80 and D200 have just been reduced in price. And I have mentioned the price of the GX-20 ? As I said it's getting very crowded overthere... Ned B. told us Pentax is going for the niche. Specific groups of users, and camera's adressing the needs of those users. Waterproof P&S and DSLR's, with a number of features meant for a specific group of users: like the Subaru car brand. Unfortunately, many of these features are found in the cameras of the others brands by now. Weather sealing, ant-dust, anti-shake with high quality sensors...you really will not get a bad camera if you buy a A700. Of course some users will go for the TAv on the new K20d, color adjustment of the lcd screen in stead of a swivel one with more pixels or a fully programmable raw-button. But my conclusion is that Pentax has become less unique than they tend to believe themselves. Based on this, and the fact that growth in sales will come from the P&S compact user going to basic or more advanced amateur DSLRs, that's where the battle of the prices is fought. And as i said, overlooking this entire market, it's getting crowdy.... Most of the innovation money in the k20d is stuffed in the cmos-sensor. The rest is cosmetics and patch work/small additions (apart from the semi live view). The Savox III is still there, and many gimmicks are mostly software based and combined with a hardware step back from 22-bit to 14/12- bit. Surely, it's more complete than the k10d, and it does have a superior low noise high iso profile. For the rest, its just 10 more than the k10d...and still a great camera ! Of course Pentax may try to keep the prices high to increase profits and 'status'. But my prediction is that the k20d story won't be much different from the k10d. In fact, the price drop has already started and it may very well go down faster than the k10d price considering the huge competition .... lock Last edited by lock2nl; 05-13-2008 at 11:26 AM.

02-13-2008, 07:33 AM	#35
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Price, of course, is mainly a function of offer and demand. All depends now where the photo magazines in the respective countries put the K20D in their reviews. If K20D wins all tests because of its impressive IQ ("editor's choice"), demand will be high and so will the price. If K20D does so-so in the tests because live view is slow or what else..., demand will be lower and so will the price. So, watch out for the verdict in the first comparison tests being published in your country. Then you will know too when "your price" is being made available

02-13-2008, 09:00 AM	#36
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by lock2nl combined with a hardware step back from 22-bit to 14/12- bit. lock Huh.. marketing stepback, maybe...

02-13-2008, 09:55 AM	#37
dlee New Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Victoria, BC Canada Posts: 17	Originally posted by davemdsn I spent about 4 years working in a camera store, which is how I got much of my gear over the years. Let me tell you that the retail mark up on digital cameras is not what it was on film cameras. Retailers are lucky to get 10-12% on most DSLRs. They really don't have much room to discount the cameras. Places like B&H sell it for less because they get a price reduction for buying in larger quantities. The real price reductions happen at the distributor/manufacturer level. Significant price reductions are directly in Hoya/Pentax's hands. And (in this store) we're still working on 10-12% mark up. David

02-13-2008, 11:40 AM	#38
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by WendyB Wanna make a bet It wont go below 1190? It would be nice but wont happen till ,,,,, I cant tell you why Hmmm, is it because of a top-secret government database you're privy to which "proved" that the turns-out-they-were-legit K20D Dubai images were from a K100D?

02-13-2008, 12:23 PM	#39
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Originally posted by regken I promised myself I wasn't going to jump in on this but can't help myself. 1190 doesn't make any marketing sense unless every review on the net, yes including our beloved Phil, rates it above the Canon 40D in every category including AF speed. That camera is already down to $1150. Regards, Ken Think "that ship has sailed" already..... Re: No surprise: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/20728-pop-photo-k20d-review.html

02-13-2008, 01:49 PM	#40
regken Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangor, Maine Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,377	Originally posted by jeffkrol Think "that ship has sailed" already..... Re: No surprise: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/20728-pop-photo-k20d-review.html Yep! $900 here we come.

02-22-2008, 01:43 PM	#41
Anastigmat Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: USA Posts: 126	Originally posted by noblepa While Hoya has said that they would like to see Pentax produce higher margins, what they really want are profits. They're not stupid. Is it better to see $100 profit (each) on 10,000 cameras, or $50 profit on 100,000 cameras sold? They will do what it takes to maximize total profits. That means that they will try to balance price (high margins) and units sold (low price). They will try to analyse the unexpected success of the K10D and use that knowledge to maximize margins without sacrificing units sold. That said, I do agree that the K20D will probably never sell for $600. Paul Noble Profits will be higher than $100 per camera for sure. The sensor in the K20D should cost about the same as the one in the K10D, since both are APS-C in size. The price difference between the K10D and K20D is really all gravy. So, potentially, the K20D price can be lowered to the same level as the K10D and it will still be profitable. But will it be lowered to that level, ever? Well, that would depend on market conditions, specifically on how much competitive models are sold for. Sony has a 14mp APS-C camera of its own, the A350, which should give the K20D some competition. When the K30D, probably with the same sensor but faster AF and faster frame rate, is introduced, the K20D price will probably fall.

02-22-2008, 02:34 PM	#42
janneman Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 908	Originally posted by lock2nl I can only add to this by saying that the K20d started with a retail price of €1299 over here (body only). You can now pre-order it for about €1100,- and there is one retailer offering a deal for €1019,- ! lock even € 995,00, body only, now Originally posted by davemdsn I spent about 4 years working in a camera store, which is how I got much of my gear over the years. Let me tell you that the retail mark up on digital cameras is not what it was on film cameras. Retailers are lucky to get 10-12% on most DSLRs. They really don't have much room to discount the cameras. Places like B&H sell it for less because they get a price reduction for buying in larger quantities. The real price reductions happen at the distributor/manufacturer level. Significant price reductions are directly in Hoya/Pentax's hands. Also, a $50 price reduction won't increase sales by ten fold. Would be nice if it did, but it doesn't. That being said, I do hope for a bit if a reduction by it's release, but I won't be holding my breath. So that makes me believe Samsung is actually maing a loss in order to get into the DSLR market?? And is that the reason why we see so few Samsung in the shop??? No profit for retailers?

02-22-2008, 04:10 PM	#43
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	Originally posted by WendyB Wanna make a bet It wont go below 1190? It would be nice but wont happen till ,,,,, I cant tell you why List price in Europe is 1299 euros. You can find it already near the 1100 euro limit and it's not even out yet. My bet is that is 6 month, it will be a very nice 899 euros body. What Iam betting is ... well 899!! It's kind of a reversed bet: if I am right, I'll lose the money!

02-23-2008, 07:27 AM	#44
janneman Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 908	Originally posted by lol101 List price in Europe is 1299 euros. You can find it already near the 1100 euro limit and it's not even out yet. My bet is that is 6 month, it will be a very nice 899 euros body. What Iam betting is ... well 899!! It's kind of a reversed bet: if I am right, I'll lose the money! Seen it for € 995,00 (body only ) already...

02-23-2008, 12:31 PM	#45
SteveNunez Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 230	I have yet to see a DSLR surpass the IQ of the medim-high end Canon's- if this K20D can do so that would be a feat in itself. Mind you I have a K10D and like it allot- but I've also owned many high end DSLR's (D1X, EOS 1D MarkIIN etc..) and aside from the Sigma SD14's Foveon sensor, the Canon's CMOS sensor produces the best image quality. I think my draw to Pentax was the feeling of shooting with a camera with "very good" image quality yet not the "popular" N or C brands.....a feeling of shooting something more "exotic or unique" in the DSLR kingdom. The K10D has some very good features I really like as well as in-camera processing etc that made me take notice and buy a Pentax. I have noticed however that there's more limitations to using the Pentax when compared to N or C....but I'm gonna give the Pentax a though using and see what I can produce with it.........that's the Pentax draw for me.......if the new K20D proves to have Canon-like IQ I'll buy one!