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02-14-2008, 08:41 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Do you really think Canon or Nikon would pull ads if the magazine said too nice of things about the competition? something nice to say about everything.
Unfortunately, the pulling of ad revenue has been done by Canon...recently as a matter of fact in...I believe... in a French photography publication. It may not have been so much for glowing issues on a competitior as much as a lack of a glowing review on Canon equipment itself.

I have not viewed all the post yet in this thread. But, of note to me is that this is the second review in a row posted on this forum, wherein, a reviewer finished off a review of a Pentax camera /lens and suggested purchasing a 1) cheap Canon DSLR and 2) a cheaper competitiors lens. Now... do you think that type of nonsense would ever follow a review of a top Nikon or Canon DSLR. Though I might be wrong I highly doubt that such would happen.

Early in my career I was an advertising photographer and I don't think that ad money talks any differently now than it did then.

Stephen

02-14-2008, 09:53 AM   #32
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MattDM - I was going to reply to you as SCGushue has - Yes! They pull ads for positive competition review and they place ads for positive 'own' reviews. Publications bend over to the highest bidder, it's ALWAYS been that way. That's why 'Consumer Reports' was created, to eliminate that crap.. Though, even I have my doubts about them.


Christine - Emily is still pretty low but, both are just as irresponsible in my opinion.. Though, Emily might have something to offer that I like

Ben - Without saying a word, you've said more than enough. Thanks.
02-14-2008, 10:15 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom M Quote
MattDM - I was going to reply to you as SCGushue has - Yes! They pull ads for positive competition review and they place ads for positive 'own' reviews. Publications bend over to the highest bidder, it's ALWAYS been that way. That's why 'Consumer Reports' was created, to eliminate that crap.. Though, even I have my doubts about them.


Christine - Emily is still pretty low but, both are just as irresponsible in my opinion.. Though, Emily might have something to offer that I like

Ben - Without saying a word, you've said more than enough. Thanks.
My most recent instance of this cind of crap whas in Which Uk camera recommendation.
they had a low end comparison between the Nikon D40, D50, D80, Pentax K10D and K100D, Canon 350D. Guess what won for overall camera.
The crappy Canon. No offence to Canon but that camera was really craptastic in my oppinion.
And just to prove that I am not just being bias... what was also at the end of the page of these reviews. Yes!!!! a compatition to win a 350D.... Canon sponsorship anyone???
Overall that made me angry.
02-14-2008, 07:12 PM   #34
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Huh. I guess the industry I come from (computer software) must have higher standards than the photo magazine world. Or maybe there's just more possible sources of money. I can see smaller rags with no reputation to care about being swayed, but it seems like anyone with a recognizable name is best served by developing a reputation for being even-handed.

I suppose what you're saying explains what I said earlier PopPhoto tends to be positive in all of its reviews but I still am inclined to believe that they at least intend fairness.

02-14-2008, 07:23 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
I personally think it's a positive review but there are some areas that they made big mistakes on their end.

They said the Sony A700 takes better images because of color accuracy, but in their own test on the A700 they rate to color worse than the Pentax 8.9 vs 7.9. It's bad book keeping on their end and it shouldn't happen. They also state the A700 shake reduction is slightly superior to the K20D which they give both a 3 stop advantage too so I'm not seeing the whole advantage here and what the heck does slightly superior mean? They do that a lot in the review using big words to make something just a tad different sound huge. But overall after reading it they basically say it's better than an A700 Canon 40D, but doesn't hold a candle to the D300 except in resolution.
I agree . Your assessment of the article is probably the most balanced I have seen yet. I saw that you posted at Dpreview as well. Did you offend that person in a previous life or something. Wow. Maybe they just out of bed on the wrong side. Thanks for the essay by the way.
02-14-2008, 08:32 PM   #36
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Image quality @ ISO3200 gets an Extremely High but an Unacceptable for noise... still scratching the head.
02-15-2008, 12:20 AM   #37
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"Copy and Paste"!

QuoteOriginally posted by pareto Quote
Concering their AF speed test I think it's another surprise that the focusing speed of the K20D is exactly the same as the K10D's. On every light level, down to the second decimal place! I wonder if they really tested this or just said: "well, it's the same AF system, so let's copypaste the old results."
If it's Pentax who "copied and pasted" the AF system from the K10D into the K20D, what's the surprise here? Why we have to impose conspiracy theory to the testers when the results are unfavourable? :-)
02-15-2008, 12:24 AM   #38
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Comparison

QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
If I read this review correctly, and compare it to D300, 40D or A700 from the same site, the K20D has considerably more noise at all ISO (heck, it has even more noise than K10...), slower AF, less color accuracy and jpeg quality at all ISO, a less efficient SR than the other stabilized body, a less interesting LV than the other cameras offering LV, a smaller screen, and it goes on...

The only thing they give it is a small advantage in resolution...

That's not a cold shower, it's a debacle... or a murder attempt...

Oh well... Pop Photo won't help sell K20D... next in line!
Everything in this planet is relative. And Yes, if we are to compare the test results which were obtained with the same yardstick..

02-15-2008, 04:22 AM   #39
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Did you see this ?

http://pentax.mydns.jp/exif/files/img20080209124515.jpg
http://pentax.mydns.jp/exif/files/img20080209022934.jpg

I think k20d compares pretty good to FF cameras.
02-15-2008, 04:40 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by m8o Quote
Image quality @ ISO3200 gets an Extremely High but an Unacceptable for noise... still scratching the head.
I did not believe ISO3200 that bad. Most images are rather clean and easy to look at. Reasonable for extremely dark situation.

p.s. I have lost interest in these major publications where the reviews can only be treated as entertainment purpose. I read these magazines in the newsagency as they are not worth the money.
02-15-2008, 05:59 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
If it's Pentax who "copied and pasted" the AF system from the K10D into the K20D, what's the surprise here? Why we have to impose conspiracy theory to the testers when the results are unfavourable? :-)
Doh ... think about it for just one second. That AF system is in my GX-1S and the K100D yet the K10D focus' faster than them. Some of it is related to the torque and speed of the motor doing the focusing which will be in turn affected by the power source eg My GX-1S focus' faster with CR-V3's than it does with NiMh - well at least the motor sounds like it is turning faster and it appears that other forum posters have come to this conclusion

Not only that by I defy anyone to be able to get the same times down to a hundredth of a second from the same camera let alone different cameras !! It just isn't scientifically probable !
02-15-2008, 06:27 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
If it's Pentax who "copied and pasted" the AF system from the K10D into the K20D, what's the surprise here? Why we have to impose conspiracy theory to the testers when the results are unfavourable? :-)
Hello RiceHigh!

I'm not imposing conspiracy but rather laziness. Maybe Pentax has copied and pasted the AF system. Maybe it's slightly faster, maybe it's slightly slower. Nevertheless getting 100% the same results is extremly improbable. They measure the focusing speed in 9 different light situations and determine the respective time down to a hundredth of a second. As you know every measurement has a specific error; so getting exactly the same number at this accuracy is very unlikely even in equal situations and with a single cam. Take an optimistic guess of p=0.5 for getting the same time for two measurements on equal hardware down to a hundredth of a second. The probability for a series of 9 exactly equal results is now p=0.5^9=0,00195.

If you consider that the 0.5 is rather high, they used different cameras, probably different lenses and maybe different persons to push the release button and to take the time, the whole AF speed test indeed is surprising.

Have a nice day!
02-15-2008, 06:52 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
If it's Pentax who "copied and pasted" the AF system from the K10D into the K20D, what's the surprise here? Why we have to impose conspiracy theory to the testers when the results are unfavourable? :-)
Oh rou're a K20D developper now, RiceHigh? Why czn'(t you just go away? You'd be better at DPR.. Oh even there you went banned... heck !
02-15-2008, 07:12 AM   #44
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let's see what trap focus does

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
If it's Pentax who "copied and pasted" the AF system from the K10D into the K20D, what's the surprise here? Why we have to impose conspiracy theory to the testers when the results are unfavourable? :-)
It is very possible Pentax has taken a brilliant approach to the AF speed issue. IF the trap focus feature speeds up the AF to somewhere near the speed of the Canon 40D we will have the best of both worlds. This could prove to be one of the biggest features of the K20D but we need to see some test first. The accuracy of the K10D and a second mode with the speed of the 40D would be ideal.

BTW, Let me compliment you on how you have toned down your rhetoric.

Regards,

Ken
02-15-2008, 08:24 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by pareto Quote
Hello RiceHigh!

I'm not imposing conspiracy but rather laziness. Maybe Pentax has copied and pasted the AF system. Maybe it's slightly faster, maybe it's slightly slower. Nevertheless getting 100% the same results is extremly improbable. They measure the focusing speed in 9 different light situations and determine the respective time down to a hundredth of a second. As you know every measurement has a specific error; so getting exactly the same number at this accuracy is very unlikely even in equal situations and with a single cam. Take an optimistic guess of p=0.5 for getting the same time for two measurements on equal hardware down to a hundredth of a second. The probability for a series of 9 exactly equal results is now p=0.5^9=0,00195.

If you consider that the 0.5 is rather high, they used different cameras, probably different lenses and maybe different persons to push the release button and to take the time, the whole AF speed test indeed is surprising.

Have a nice day!
I disagree. You need to work on your statistics.

Let the true population distribution of the AF speed at a given light level with a given AF unit and voltage supplied have mean 1 and standard deviation 0.05.

Then, let the true population be estimated by a study with sample size n=100 tests.

The distribution of x-bar will have mean 1 and standard deviation of 0.005. Thus the probability can be easily calculated that if PopPhoto's tests are accurate, there would be approximately a 95% chance that a second test will yield the same results as the first at each light level if exact to the .01 level. At 9 light levels total, there is approximately a 63% chance of identical results.
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