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02-17-2008, 08:52 AM   #61
ogl
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Pop Photo - don't pay attention - silly reviews. Abstract figures. No serious analysis.
The cartoons for housewifes.
Don't they know about 4 levels of NR of K20D?
Default is NR off. D300 is NR on.
I saw beta photos of 3200 from K20D. Even beta version is better than D300.


Last edited by ogl; 02-17-2008 at 09:07 AM.
02-17-2008, 10:04 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Pop Photo - don't pay attention - silly reviews. Abstract figures. No serious analysis.

Default is NR off. D300 is NR on.
I saw beta photos of 3200 from K20D. Even beta version is better than D300.
I'm as big a Pentax fanboy as most on this site but let's be honest here. These were all shot in RAW with no NR according to Pop Photo web site. Pentax does have better resolution Which probably means more NR can be used but ISO 1600 is still very bad, not much better than the K10D.

I'll still wait to see the same photo shot with the k10D at 800 and the K20D at ISO 1600 to see if the K20D can give us at least one stop better performance. Being a gadget geek I really want to upgrade but so far I'm not seeing an $800 difference which is what it would cost to upgrade at present pricing and being optimistic on what I could get for my K10D. Unless new photos and or reviews can show me a lot more I'm rating the upgrade to be worth about $300 to $400.

Regards,

Ken
02-17-2008, 11:26 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
I'm as big a Pentax fanboy as most on this site but let's be honest here. These were all shot in RAW with no NR according to Pop Photo web site. Pentax does have better resolution Which probably means more NR can be used but ISO 1600 is still very bad, not much better than the K10D.

I'll still wait to see the same photo shot with the k10D at 800 and the K20D at ISO 1600 to see if the K20D can give us at least one stop better performance. Being a gadget geek I really want to upgrade but so far I'm not seeing an $800 difference which is what it would cost to upgrade at present pricing and being optimistic on what I could get for my K10D. Unless new photos and or reviews can show me a lot more I'm rating the upgrade to be worth about $300 to $400.

Regards,

Ken
I really wouldn't base any buying decision on Pop Photo test but of course you're free to take those results as you want.
02-17-2008, 01:17 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I really wouldn't base any buying decision on Pop Photo test but of course you're free to take those results as you want.
I don't plan on basing my decision from one review. The similarity of the noise figures from the K10D and the K20D are worrisome. I could care less what the other brands do, my interest is between the 10 and the 20. As I said before, at this time I'm not seeing an $800 difference between the two.

Regards,

Ken

02-17-2008, 02:29 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Why each time and every time it must be the Pentax's DSLRs which the testers (e.g. DPR, PopPhoto etc.) don't know how to use it and how to set the cameras??
Why Dpreview bumped the news regarding the Canon 450D on their main page the 3rd time ? They made 2 previews as they did with all the cameras, then they made another one just to keep the canon on top of every other pre PMA news for 3-4 days. I think you are smart enaugh to tell me why some reviewers gives a **** about pentax, while they are very careful not to offend the big names.

QuoteQuote:
The truth is those renowned testers are far more knowledgable than any average Joe in using any camera gear and know very well how to get the best out of a camera. Do you think any one of us actually knows better than those gurus?
Yes I think I could write a better review at least in the AF and the NR tests! Where are the samples images to analize them ourself ? Where are the exifs ?

They even made a very big mistake, they think the Canon 40D is the same waterproof/sealed like the K20D, look what they say in relation : "The K20D is built to take similar abuse". NO, this is wrong, the K20D can take abuse(water, dust, moist, etc), the 40D not!

QuoteQuote:
Those are test images with no data measured, nor, they were made by production unit of the K20D. Noise wise, I can still see plenty of noise in the shadow areas despite that the K20D pics have a bit more exposure level than the others, which are brighter. So, it's very normal that a brighter portion of the picture will have less noise, no surprise here. Last but not least, all the EXIF info are deleted in the original individual test pics, which makes them a bit suspective. So, I opted not to report and comment on those pics.
Oh so you think is not fair to compare a pre production K20D with a final 40D or D300 or A700 ? Even if the pre production K20D outshines the 3 others. lol, you are so FAIR, what do you think - that the final production model will be worse than the one tested by the Japanese ? right....

And here you quickly notice the K20D has a more slightly exposed image and missing exif, but the other way around, when pentax is crippled by a reviewer you don't notice anything wrong, you just ignore it . Where is the exif and test image from the pop photo ? Why don't you complain about that ?
02-17-2008, 03:36 PM   #66
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I don't get it. I was just at the newstand and read the review in the physical print magazine. (The link is up at the official pop photo site, but it seems to be having issues at the moment.) The review was very favorable, not at all in line with the comments I've been reading in this thread.

Also: what I never understand about the ISO numbers is are those numbers the best possible? For instance, if I shot RAW, is there an optimal workflow that gets me better high-ISO performance if I were willing to work at it?

Last edited by twinda1; 02-17-2008 at 03:45 PM.
02-18-2008, 12:29 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
I don't plan on basing my decision from one review. The similarity of the noise figures from the K10D and the K20D are worrisome. I could care less what the other brands do, my interest is between the 10 and the 20. As I said before, at this time I'm not seeing an $800 difference between the two.

Regards,

Ken
I was not refering to a K20D vs other brand decision but to a K10D vs K20D which is exactly the question you seem to debate. Their conclusion do not line up *at all* with other reports so *I* take them as being dubious at the very least.

There are other comments in the riview which are totally stupid and proves that they do not even knowwhat they are talking about. It is a favorable review for Pentax, nice but it is crap nonetheless IMO.
02-18-2008, 02:13 AM   #68
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It seems to me K20D's ISO1600 is better than K100D.
K20D - ‘орумы ѕента-клуба
from Russian Photo Expo

RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting
beta version of firmware

02-18-2008, 02:17 AM   #69
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PopPhoto or Dpreview will never stand Pentax cameras higher than Canon or Nikon or Sony.
I don't care. I see the great job with new sensor and with end picture of K20D. It's breakthru. Really. Very good photo tool.
02-18-2008, 02:32 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by twinda1 Quote
Also: what I never understand about the ISO numbers is are those numbers the best possible? For instance, if I shot RAW, is there an optimal workflow that gets me better high-ISO performance if I were willing to work at it?
Well, actually I think there is. But I also think any converters need some tweaking before they get most out of the new sensor, and as I do not have that I actually haven't tried it. In stead I've used jpegs only.
Everybody is paying a lot of attention to the Pop photo test. But several pictures with noise reduction on and off and with firmware 1.0 were available on the net before te pop photo test to help you judge for yourself.
Personally, I tend to believe the pop photo noise results for the time being, despite the fact that it's not clear if NR was on or off ( though the low iso 800 value may indicate NR kicking in). Noise levels without NR are higher than the d300 at least, but the noise is very very fine. Combined with the high resolution even at iso 6400 I have been able to PP the jpegs to produce very clean pictures with vbery good detail. Thus,despite showing the verdict' uneacceptable' in pop photo, I tend to say 'don't judge it until you've tried yourself'.

Actually, PP D300 pictures (with NR on btw) did not give me much different results. PP the A700 pictures (with NR on btw) never gave me the same quality sofar because of the patchy color reproduction at high iso.

So I suggest we all wait until we get our hands on a decent K20d with firmware 1.0, and see what happens if NR is on or off, throughout the entire iso range, and how these pictures respond to PP.

I personally would have rated pop photo's testing much higher if they would have actually found that 'high speed AF-function' and tested it properly. That would have been news to me. But I guess they really never looked for it. That actually tells me more about how they test cameras than anything thet produce from a standardized measurement (however small the samples may be).

This is iso 6400 on the k20d (thanks to Blende8 who gave us the original jpeg without NR), but after light PP with Neat Image:



I can live with this, because I'm used to the k10d high iso performance after NR.....


lock

Last edited by lock2nl; 02-18-2008 at 05:52 AM.
02-18-2008, 05:41 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by raz Quote
Why Dpreview bumped the news regarding the Canon 450D on their main page the 3rd time ? They made 2 previews as they did with all the cameras, then they made another one just to keep the canon on top of every other pre PMA news for 3-4 days. I think you are smart enaugh to tell me why some reviewers gives a **** about pentax, while they are very careful not to offend the big names.

Pssh. More of their readers are interested in news about the new Canon Rebel than most other things from PMA, certainly including anything from Pentax, even as cool as it might be. This needn't be about pleasing Canon Ч it's just about pleasing Canon fans, which is to say a huge portion of their userbase. Nothing wrong with that Ч especially since they did give a lot of attention to and have good things to say about the "lesser" players too.
02-18-2008, 06:04 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
I'm as big a Pentax fanboy as most on this site but let's be honest here. These were all shot in RAW with no NR according to Pop Photo web site. Pentax does have better resolution Which probably means more NR can be used but ISO 1600 is still very bad, not much better than the K10D.

I'll still wait to see the same photo shot with the k10D at 800 and the K20D at ISO 1600 to see if the K20D can give us at least one stop better performance. Being a gadget geek I really want to upgrade but so far I'm not seeing an $800 difference which is what it would cost to upgrade at present pricing and being optimistic on what I could get for my K10D. Unless new photos and or reviews can show me a lot more I'm rating the upgrade to be worth about $300 to $400.

Regards,

Ken
A700 applies NR to RAW images. Noone is certain whether Nikon do this too.
02-18-2008, 08:10 AM   #73
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No K20D at PMA and even at Moscow Photo Expo now (closed today) with firmware 1.00.
Nobody see 1.00 firmware. How did PopPhoto make review of camera which not selling yet?
Preproduction version? Phil, to say honestly, never review preproduction cameras.
Even official dealers have no 1.00 firmware.
02-18-2008, 09:02 AM   #74
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Pentax DE (Hamburg) had them/it. And some were privileged to try them (or it).

lock

Last edited by lock2nl; 02-18-2008 at 11:40 AM.
02-18-2008, 09:06 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
A700 applies NR to RAW images. Noone is certain whether Nikon do this too.
You are right Steve. I forgot that. It would surprise me if Nikon is doing the the same. It's interesting Sony took this route but still my major interest is seeing a k10D-k20D comparison at ISO 400 through 3200. The extra resolution should have some effect and the CMOS sensor might control color noise a little better.

The implementation of LV seems to be weak in the areas I'd use it so that is a feature I'm not willing to pay more for. It comes down to how much better does it handle noise and does "Trap focus" improve low light speed. Depending on how much these two features improve performance over my K10D will determine how much I'm willing to spend on the upgrade.

Regards,

Ken
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