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02-20-2008, 06:52 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Asking the testers or reviewers to change the camera settings to get the most "optimised" test results is in fact silly and unrealistic. How they bother to do that but not simply test the factory setting, which should be the default one recommended by the manufacturer? How many different combinations should they try before going on to do the test?

In fact, if the default setting won't do good, the camera or its maker deserves for the poor results. They should leave the optimisation works to the users, but not to the testers.
Last time I looked, they were reviewing DSLR's, not point&shoot cameras. Asking a camera REVIEWER to actually change settings on a DSLR is not silly and unrealistic, its actually the exact opposite that is silly and unrealistic.

I thought a manufacturer was making cameras for photographers, not measurebating reviewers. Especially if its a more advanced camera and not an entry level unit.

02-20-2008, 06:57 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I think that (blind) "brand loyalty" is just a very stupid thing.
Yet you seem to have zero problem with obsessive brand hatred.
02-20-2008, 07:02 AM   #93
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Defamation

QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Really... then you're not a true tester.

If you really want to test something you do it over and over again and test it in every possible way until you get the optimal results and note what needs to be done to achieve those optimal results. Car mags do it, Gun mags do it, camera mags... they test at factory defaults but mention they have options to improve the settings.

Phil even shoots his test shots at the lens optimal aperture so why can't he hit the menu buttons and play with other modes? Yes, he does state that he physically shoots his 50mm 1.4's at differing apertures and keeps the results from the best one even though they contrast heavily from Photozones tests of the lenses.
You may continue to argue in this way. Tests and reviews give unfavourable results for Pentax gear in the past have all been simply because of the testers and reviewers have never known and tried to make the optimal settings for the Pentax gear.

But, why most of the time it must be Pentax who lost the game??

QuoteQuote:
RH, the only time you say anything is if it makes you seem right and everyone else seem wrong. Thats fine and dandy, but it fills the site with more nonsense to dig through. You've already switched to Canon, but still tag along for some reason and again thats fine, but you can't base factual results without really comparing the camera yourself.
Just see my reply to Steve a few minutes ago and think about it.

QuoteQuote:
Basically you're breaking the law... Pop photo and all of them have their results and you're using them for your site, isn't their some sort on infringement there. It's as if Motor Trend used another mags review and summarized it, but swung it in their opinion. IDK RH, you're really stretching your name as measurebator.. you're more of a copy&paster.
If anyone who (already) published their test results on the Internet and then all other people are quoting the results for discussions, and then they will all "break" the law if you're right. Well, I think, most of us here or in DPR who've ever quoted even one timing result figure have already broken the law according to your theory.

I have never copied anything from Popphoto and said these stuff are mine. In contrast, I quoted all the links to their website and mentioned that Popphoto's names repeatedly again and again and starts the discussion. You unsubstantiated accuse to me can also break the law, it is called *defamation*.

Chris, ask yourself, if I am just praising the Popphoto results by quoting these, will you have made such a defamation on me??
02-20-2008, 07:25 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Asking the testers or reviewers to change the camera settings to get the most "optimised" test results is in fact silly and unrealistic. How they bother to do that but not simply test the factory setting, which should be the default one recommended by the manufacturer? How many different combinations should they try before going on to do the test?

In fact, if the default setting won't do good, the camera or its maker deserves for the poor results. They should leave the optimisation works to the users, but not to the testers.
That's beside the point I was making which is about drawing conclusions and making comparisons when you don't know which settings were used (some say NR off, some say NR on, some say jpeg, some say raw....)

But here we agree 100%: for me, the only purpose of a default mode is to give testers (and users by the way) an optimized jpeg version of what the camera can do in terms of IQ: best compromise at all ISO.

This should include moderate saturation with good color accuracy, moderate contrast while preserving DR and clever sharpening. Furthermore, it should also include some level of NR for high ISO results with a necessary trade off on resolution.

Actually, the D300 is the best exemple of this kind of compromise and will slam every other camera on this, including the K20 from what I can see (if the default mode is "bright" with NR off, I can predict a flurry of bad color accuracy which the bright mode is known for, low DR because of high contrast and noisy high ISO because of the bad conjunction of high sharpening, high contrast and high saturation with no NR. This might be a shame if the K20 is capable of much better output when used with other settings).

That's not saying it isn't possible to get as good images from other camera but thanks to this, the D300 will shine in comparative tests and thus, get more sells.

Now, I would also say that a professional reviewer could go about including in his tests the effects of some basic IQ settings (saturation/contrast/sharpness/NR) and some actually do (Photozone or Imaging Ressource come to mind) but that's another debate....


Last edited by lol101; 02-20-2008 at 07:53 AM.
02-20-2008, 07:31 AM   #95
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RH, have you tested the K20D yourself?

If you can answer yes then by all means please feel free to clutter your nonsense.

Ya... didn't think so.

Have I tested to the K20D? Yes I have. Have I compared them to other cameras in the same situation? Yes I have. Will I use default settings? Sure I will. Will I use other settings? Yes I will.

I'll have a K20D well before you do RH and will post honest factual results before you can muck up the internet with more silly nonsense.
02-20-2008, 09:02 AM   #96
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Woo hoo!

When are you getting it Codiac? Looking forward to some images!!
02-21-2008, 04:34 AM   #97
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"Nonsense"

QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
RH, have you tested the K20D yourself?

If you can answer yes then by all means please feel free to clutter your nonsense.

Ya... didn't think so.

Have I tested to the K20D? Yes I have. Have I compared them to other cameras in the same situation? Yes I have. Will I use default settings? Sure I will. Will I use other settings? Yes I will.
For what you have let us know, you have written an *user review* with 2,500 *words* on a K20D *pre-production unit*.

QuoteQuote:
I'll have a K20D well before you do RH and will post honest factual results before you can muck up the internet with more silly nonsense.
Of course I do not have a K20D in my hands as you knew well, just because I have no affiliation with Pentax or any of Pentax's dealers so that I could by no means get such a pre-production unit. In fact, all the published tests and reviews I wrote in the past for all camera gear are made on gear items which I bought directly at the streets, but not from anyone.

But still I cannot see your "logic" for one not having a camera should not and could not write and discuss something about it, especially for a new camera. Well, what's a discussion forum for? What is the "non-sense" for judging the formal test reports from others and discuss? Do you want to mean that you are the only one who is "qaulified" to speak something here, just because you have *touched* a pre-production K20D???
02-21-2008, 06:29 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
For what you have let us know, you have written an *user review* with 2,500 *words* on a K20D *pre-production unit*.



Of course I do not have a K20D in my hands as you knew well, just because I have no affiliation with Pentax or any of Pentax's dealers so that I could by no means get such a pre-production unit. In fact, all the published tests and reviews I wrote in the past for all camera gear are made on gear items which I bought directly at the streets, but not from anyone.

But still I cannot see your "logic" for one not having a camera should not and could not write and discuss something about it, especially for a new camera. Well, what's a discussion forum for? What is the "non-sense" for judging the formal test reports from others and discuss? Do you want to mean that you are the only one who is "qaulified" to speak something here, just because you have *touched* a pre-production K20D???
No. It's cause you seem to despise Pentax, and he doesn't. What did they ever do to you, RH?

02-21-2008, 07:39 AM   #99
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Ignore

QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
OK THAT IS IT RH...I have been very patient with you...NOW LISTEN and LISTEN VERY CLOSELY....TAKE A F--KING PHOTO or DO SOMETHING CREATIVE...You are starting to really PISS me off and YOU don't want to get ME pissed off...Believe me!!!

Because slandering a brand or posting of erroneous or false data is not really very legal if you catch my meaning...Agenda's perhaps?
I am really got very tired about you guys who like to always make meaningless (attack) posts about me personally. As such, from now on, I shall not respond furthermore to such impolite and uncivilised posts and words anymore.

If there is any more posts (by anyone) which could be back to the discussion topic, that is, about the PopPhoto's review's test results, I am glad to reply and discuss again.
02-21-2008, 07:49 AM   #100
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So are you saying that as long as we keep the topic on you and your vitriol for Pentax, then you'll stay out? Is that a promise?

SLC
02-21-2008, 07:58 AM   #101
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Wearing out your welcome

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I am really got very tired about you guys who like to always make meaningless (attack) posts about me personally. As such, from now on, I shall not respond furthermore to such impolite and uncivilised posts and words anymore.

If there is any more posts (by anyone) which could be back to the discussion topic, that is, about the PopPhoto's review's test results, I am glad to reply and discuss again.
Regardless if it's right or wrong, it is becoming obvious that you have pretty well worn out your welcome in Pentaxland. ( Banned from dpreview, steves forums, and gracefully exited from photozone under "mysterious" circumstances). I've had the pleasure of "discussing" Pentax with you for over 5 years I believe. Your style (and err logic) have never changed.... and I know I'm pretty well done with it. Stick to your "blog". It is much more effective for you than to come here (or anywhere "pentax")............. hopefully you will take the hint, and I wish you "god speed"
BTW:
Ever take those side by side Canon/Pentax photos I asked for months ago?
Ever realize Canon does NOT adhere to the ANSI metering standard (at least for iso)?
Ever realize a properly calibrated meter should not peak at 126?
Sooner or later I will contact MIET to verify that you are indeed an engineer, not to be vindictive but some of your logic leads me to believe you are not who you pretend to be...
only problem is I suppose there are a bunch of Michael Poon's in Hong Kong but no matter, I'm probably as stubborn as you are... See you at "the blog".......
02-21-2008, 08:00 AM   #102
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Don't feed the trolls. The best way to deal with them is to ignore them.

I'm new in this forum, an so I'm not sure; but in other forums, there is an option of putting some annoying posters in the "ignore list". That would be a most useful feature in cases like this.
02-21-2008, 08:44 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by cateto Quote
Don't feed the trolls. The best way to deal with them is to ignore them.

I'm new in this forum, an so I'm not sure; but in other forums, there is an option of putting some annoying posters in the "ignore list". That would be a most useful feature in cases like this.
What you don't understand here is the chronology of events. I have come to RH's defense more often than I wish to count. I felt that a point of view should be respected. But it has reached the point that it is evident that there is a very well defined agenda here. I have been critical of Pentax at times. I use their products professionally and actually take photos with their products unlike RH..If Pentax were not up to the standards I require, I would no longer be with them. RH seems to spend most of his time being critical of a product without actually using it..That is unacceptable by my standards.

Best Wishes
Ben
02-21-2008, 08:50 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I am really got very tired about you guys who like to always make meaningless (attack) posts about me personally. As such, from now on, I shall not respond furthermore to such impolite and uncivilised posts and words anymore.
I know it must be hard for you - first it was at dpreview, then a several other forums, and finally here where you seem to be running into the same sort of problems. It might help to think about what the common element is at each of these forums where you have encountered personal attacks. I have a suggestion that will reveal to you what that common element is. Take one of your cameras, doesn't matter which one canon or Pentax because in this case they will both show exactly the same thing, stand in front of a mirror and take a picture. Now take a look at the instant review, and you will have your answer.

Mike
02-21-2008, 08:54 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
What you don't understand here is the chronology of events. I have come to RH's defense more often than I wish to count. I felt that a point of view should be respected. But it has reached the point that it is evident that there is a very well defined agenda here. I have been critical of Pentax at times. I use their products professionally and actually take photos with their products unlike RH..If Pentax were not up to the standards I require, I would no longer be with them. RH seems to spend most of his time being critical of a product without actually using it..That is unacceptable by my standards.

Best Wishes
Ben
I completely understand your point, Ben, and in fact my post was not addressed to you: I think I would behave the same if I was you. I just wanted to suggest to forget his posts, as they add nothing to the discussion: it is not his goal.

RH goal is rather clear: to get people confussed and to bash Pentax. Nothing more, and may I say, with no barely respectable methods. I am relatively a newcomer into photography forums, and this idea was crystal clear to me once I have read a few of the RH posts.
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