Pop Photo K20d review

Tom M · 02-13-2008, 06:33 PM

Hey Ben, what's your take on this review?

It seems they've copied the AF results from the K10D and simply applied it to the K20D. They say it's IQ is better than D300 yet the K20D numbers are higher than D3 when you read the PopPhoto D3 full review. They say that at all ISO the noise is worse than K10D. In one sentence they say it has the highest resolution below ISO 1600 and in the next they say up to ISO 1600. And it goes on and on like this..

What do you think?

MRRiley · 02-13-2008, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by roscot

The review doesn't really tell us anything we did not already know, or at least suspect. Nice to have everything independently confirmed though.

This body has a lot of potential. Nice upgrade to the K10D. I am still undecided whether I will upgrade or not though.

just an observation... PopPhoto may be "independant" but they are not unbiased. As has already been mentioned by other posters, they ignored things like the NR settings and made derogatory statements. Note that they always use all of the tricks and tweaks whe they test CaNokons. A "benefit of the doubt" that they rarely afford Pentax.

So don't consider their article as "confirmation" but as just another subjective evaluation. It puts plusses and minuses in several fields, but many more tests are needed to get more general and averaged results.

mattdm · 02-13-2008, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by MRRiley

just an observation... PopPhoto may be "independant" but they are not unbiased. As has already been mentioned by other posters, they ignored things like the NR settings and made derogatory statements. Note that they always use all of the tricks and tweaks whe they test CaNokons. A "benefit of the doubt" that they rarely afford Pentax.

So don't consider their article as "confirmation" but as just another subjective evaluation. It puts plusses and minuses in several fields, but many more tests are needed to get more general and averaged results.

Seems to me that a lot of review readers show their biases too. Not to pick on you specifically, but, for example, the first page of the review says:

Quote:

Impressive specs? Yes, but the K20D produced impressive results in the Pop Photo Lab, especially in resolution and detail at most ISOs. At 2350 lines of resolution at ISO 100–400, the K20D delivers slightly higher resolution than the Nikon D300. Then resolution drops by 5–10 percent as you crank up noise reduction at higher ISOs. Nonetheless, at ISO 6400, the resolution was still Excellent at 2100 lines.

(Bold added by me.)

So, not only do they have nice things to say about the camera over Nikon, they very clearly talk about NR.

The introductory statement of the review even says "[we] found five reasons why this camera promises to be a big hit", and the article concludes with favorable comparisons vs. the Canon 40D. But this isn't apparently positive enough for everyone to jump to cries of "unfair!!!".

To me, it really appears that a lot of people are quick to cry "bias!" whenever a review says something positive about one of the big two brands (and, c'mon, be honest — they're the big two brands because they make freakin' good cameras) or when they mention a negative of the reader's favorite brand.

C'mon.

clawhammer · 02-13-2008, 08:06 PM

well said, matt.

JMS · 02-13-2008, 11:31 PM

As a reader of PopPhoto, I feel obligated to note that they do their testing with RAW files, not JPEGS.

benjikan · 02-14-2008, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by Tom M

Hey Ben, what's your take on this review?

It seems they've copied the AF results from the K10D and simply applied it to the K20D. They say it's IQ is better than D300 yet the K20D numbers are higher than D3 when you read the PopPhoto D3 full review. They say that at all ISO the noise is worse than K10D. In one sentence they say it has the highest resolution below ISO 1600 and in the next they say up to ISO 1600. And it goes on and on like this..

What do you think?

I won't say what I think as I was attacked on that site for soliciting Pentax...I don't want to have to wash my mouth out with soap. Therefore No Comment.... No, I won't go there...It is a positive review yes, but "Just" enough stuff to not irritate their BIG ADVERTISERS.

I will say this..."Interesting Mis-Conceptions..."

Ben

lol101 · 02-14-2008, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by mattdm

Seems to me that a lot of review readers show their biases too. Not to pick on you specifically, but, for example, the first page of the review says:

(Bold added by me.)

So, not only do they have nice things to say about the camera over Nikon, they very clearly talk about NR.

The introductory statement of the review even says "[we] found five reasons why this camera promises to be a big hit", and the article concludes with favorable comparisons vs. the Canon 40D. But this isn't apparently positive enough for everyone to jump to cries of "unfair!!!".

To me, it really appears that a lot of people are quick to cry "bias!" whenever a review says something positive about one of the big two brands (and, c'mon, be honest — they're the big two brands because they make freakin' good cameras) or when they mention a negative of the reader's favorite brand.

C'mon.

I don't see any bias here: they have a testing procedure and apply it to each camera. Fair enough, it's the rule of the game.

Reviews are prospective buyers's tools for comparative assesment of different cameras.

Now imagine you're a prospective buyer and want to compare 40D, E3, A700 and D300 to K20.

95% of prospective buyers will take the ratings and do the comparison: based on that, which one would you buy?

I don't work for Pentax but if I did, I wouldn't be pleased to see my latest offering trailing at the end of the pack in noise, color accuracy, DR, AF speed and overall IQ in jpeg... do people read Pop Photo and give it credit for its reviews?

Last edited by lol101; 02-14-2008 at 01:49 AM.

zntgrg · 02-14-2008, 02:24 AM

Maybe three years ago they woulnd't have even considered reviewing a digital Pentax. Then they compare to the D300, which is actually the DSLR state of the art...[remember also at first no one considered the K20D at D300 level] and they seem on par.

Anyway i'll trust only Ricehigh review, the K20D seems made just for him

To me, D300 + K20 + nothing really huge from Canon = really big market changes.

schufosi777 · 02-14-2008, 03:14 AM

I am looking forward to some of the indepth reviews like those from Dpreview and Imaging Resource for example where I can look at standardised samples and compare with other cameras. Then Ill be better able to judge things like noise and color accuracy. Numbers dont tell the whole picture. That wasnt meant as a pun. Still regardless of the written conclusion I am more able to make my own assessment with standardised visual sample. Bring the reviews on.

christinelandon · 02-14-2008, 04:10 AM

Originally posted by Tom M

...snip...PopPhoto is the most irresponsible reviewer out there.

Tom, does that mean that Emily whatsername from a couple weeks back has moved up a notch in your opinion?

mattdm · 02-14-2008, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by benjikan

I won't say what I think as I was attacked on that site for soliciting Pentax...I don't want to have to wash my mouth out with soap. Therefore No Comment.... No, I won't go there...It is a positive review yes, but "Just" enough stuff to not irritate their BIG ADVERTISERS.

Do you really think Canon or Nikon would pull ads if the magazine said too nice of things about the competition? I don't think it works that way. For example, I see Microsoft ads all the time in Linux Magazine. And they say outright mean things about Microsoft.

In general, magazines are served much better by trying to be absolutely neutral, and most take that really seriously. If anything PopPhoto's bias seems to be in finding at least something nice to say about everything.

Harald · 02-14-2008, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by mattdm

Do you really think Canon or Nikon would pull ads if the magazine said too nice of things about the competition? I don't think it works that way. For example, I see Microsoft ads all the time in Linux Magazine. And they say outright mean things about Microsoft.

In general, magazines are served much better by trying to be absolutely neutral, and most take that really seriously. If anything PopPhoto's bias seems to be in finding at least something nice to say about everything.

As far as I know they have done just that several times and also threatened to do so, if magazines/reviewers attitude change to more favorable..... last case is just few weeks old...

Kaimarx · 02-14-2008, 06:41 AM

Perhaps the bias thats being referred to has more to do with familiarity than it does with brand loyalty. These reviewers most likely have either a Canon or a Nikon camera for personal usage or at least by now are very familiar with their cameras. I know when i first got the K10 it took a while to find out all the little "tips and tricks", the settings for best results so on and so forth (and most if not all of that came from browsing through good ol PF). Now a Pentax camera comes into the office for review and the Canon/Nikon shooter who probably spent just as much time learning the "tips and tricks" of his/her camera has to start from scratch again most probably all within a limited time...end result turns out to be: Use the camera as is with everything on default.....

Reveiwers probably need to hire people who actually use the different brands and who are familiar with its traits like a Pentax guy for the K20, a Nikon shooter for the D300 etc... that would make a fairly interesting and level playing field and a review well worth sitting through.

codiac2600 · 02-14-2008, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by lol101

I don't see any bias here: they have a testing procedure and apply it to each camera. Fair enough, it's the rule of the game.

Reviews are prospective buyers's tools for comparative assesment of different cameras.

Now imagine you're a prospective buyer and want to compare 40D, E3, A700 and D300 to K20.

95% of prospective buyers will take the ratings and do the comparison: based on that, which one would you buy?

I don't work for Pentax but if I did, I wouldn't be pleased to see my latest offering trailing at the end of the pack in noise, color accuracy, DR, AF speed and overall IQ in jpeg... do people read Pop Photo and give it credit for its reviews?

I personally think it's a positive review but there are some areas that they made big mistakes on their end.

They said the Sony A700 takes better images because of color accuracy, but in their own test on the A700 they rate to color worse than the Pentax 8.9 vs 7.9. It's bad book keeping on their end and it shouldn't happen. They also state the A700 shake reduction is slightly superior to the K20D which they give both a 3 stop advantage too so I'm not seeing the whole advantage here and what the heck does slightly superior mean? They do that a lot in the review using big words to make something just a tad different sound huge. But overall after reading it they basically say it's better than an A700 Canon 40D, but doesn't hold a candle to the D300 except in resolution.

mattdm · 02-14-2008, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by Kaimarx

Reveiwers probably need to hire people who actually use the different brands and who are familiar with its traits like a Pentax guy for the K20, a Nikon shooter for the D300 etc... that would make a fairly interesting and level playing field and a review well worth sitting through.

And it'd be interesting for each review to have a short blurb from the users of the other systems.

02-14-2008, 12:15 AM	#21
benjikan Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,308	Originally posted by Tom M Hey Ben, what's your take on this review? It seems they've copied the AF results from the K10D and simply applied it to the K20D. They say it's IQ is better than D300 yet the K20D numbers are higher than D3 when you read the PopPhoto D3 full review. They say that at all ISO the noise is worse than K10D. In one sentence they say it has the highest resolution below ISO 1600 and in the next they say up to ISO 1600. And it goes on and on like this.. What do you think? I won't say what I think as I was attacked on that site for soliciting Pentax...I don't want to have to wash my mouth out with soap. Therefore No Comment.... No, I won't go there...It is a positive review yes, but "Just" enough stuff to not irritate their BIG ADVERTISERS. I will say this..."Interesting Mis-Conceptions..." Ben Last edited by benjikan; 02-14-2008 at 12:43 AM.

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02-13-2008, 06:33 PM	#16
Tom M Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Lincoln Park, NJ Photos: Gallery Posts: 780	Hey Ben, what's your take on this review? It seems they've copied the AF results from the K10D and simply applied it to the K20D. They say it's IQ is better than D300 yet the K20D numbers are higher than D3 when you read the PopPhoto D3 full review. They say that at all ISO the noise is worse than K10D. In one sentence they say it has the highest resolution below ISO 1600 and in the next they say up to ISO 1600. And it goes on and on like this.. What do you think?

02-13-2008, 07:30 PM	#17
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	Originally posted by roscot The review doesn't really tell us anything we did not already know, or at least suspect. Nice to have everything independently confirmed though. This body has a lot of potential. Nice upgrade to the K10D. I am still undecided whether I will upgrade or not though. just an observation... PopPhoto may be "independant" but they are not unbiased. As has already been mentioned by other posters, they ignored things like the NR settings and made derogatory statements. Note that they always use all of the tricks and tweaks whe they test CaNokons. A "benefit of the doubt" that they rarely afford Pentax. So don't consider their article as "confirmation" but as just another subjective evaluation. It puts plusses and minuses in several fields, but many more tests are needed to get more general and averaged results.

02-13-2008, 07:47 PM	#18
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by MRRiley just an observation... PopPhoto may be "independant" but they are not unbiased. As has already been mentioned by other posters, they ignored things like the NR settings and made derogatory statements. Note that they always use all of the tricks and tweaks whe they test CaNokons. A "benefit of the doubt" that they rarely afford Pentax. So don't consider their article as "confirmation" but as just another subjective evaluation. It puts plusses and minuses in several fields, but many more tests are needed to get more general and averaged results. Seems to me that a lot of review readers show their biases too. Not to pick on you specifically, but, for example, the first page of the review says: Quote: Impressive specs? Yes, but the K20D produced impressive results in the Pop Photo Lab, especially in resolution and detail at most ISOs. At 2350 lines of resolution at ISO 100–400, the K20D delivers slightly higher resolution than the Nikon D300. Then resolution drops by 5–10 percent as you crank up noise reduction at higher ISOs. Nonetheless, at ISO 6400, the resolution was still Excellent at 2100 lines. (Bold added by me.) So, not only do they have nice things to say about the camera over Nikon, they very clearly talk about NR. The introductory statement of the review even says "[we] found five reasons why this camera promises to be a big hit", and the article concludes with favorable comparisons vs. the Canon 40D. But this isn't apparently positive enough for everyone to jump to cries of "unfair!!!". To me, it really appears that a lot of people are quick to cry "bias!" whenever a review says something positive about one of the big two brands (and, c'mon, be honest — they're the big two brands because they make freakin' good cameras) or when they mention a negative of the reader's favorite brand. C'mon.

02-13-2008, 08:06 PM	#19
clawhammer Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Logan, Utah Photos: Gallery Posts: 971	well said, matt.

02-13-2008, 11:31 PM	#20
JMS Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 273	As a reader of PopPhoto, I feel obligated to note that they do their testing with RAW files, not JPEGS.

02-14-2008, 01:43 AM	#22
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	Originally posted by mattdm Seems to me that a lot of review readers show their biases too. Not to pick on you specifically, but, for example, the first page of the review says: (Bold added by me.) So, not only do they have nice things to say about the camera over Nikon, they very clearly talk about NR. The introductory statement of the review even says "[we] found five reasons why this camera promises to be a big hit", and the article concludes with favorable comparisons vs. the Canon 40D. But this isn't apparently positive enough for everyone to jump to cries of "unfair!!!". To me, it really appears that a lot of people are quick to cry "bias!" whenever a review says something positive about one of the big two brands (and, c'mon, be honest — they're the big two brands because they make freakin' good cameras) or when they mention a negative of the reader's favorite brand. C'mon. I don't see any bias here: they have a testing procedure and apply it to each camera. Fair enough, it's the rule of the game. Reviews are prospective buyers's tools for comparative assesment of different cameras. Now imagine you're a prospective buyer and want to compare 40D, E3, A700 and D300 to K20. 95% of prospective buyers will take the ratings and do the comparison: based on that, which one would you buy? I don't work for Pentax but if I did, I wouldn't be pleased to see my latest offering trailing at the end of the pack in noise, color accuracy, DR, AF speed and overall IQ in jpeg... do people read Pop Photo and give it credit for its reviews? Last edited by lol101; 02-14-2008 at 01:49 AM.

02-14-2008, 02:24 AM	#23
zntgrg Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Verona, Italy Posts: 202	Maybe three years ago they woulnd't have even considered reviewing a digital Pentax. Then they compare to the D300, which is actually the DSLR state of the art...[remember also at first no one considered the K20D at D300 level] and they seem on par. Anyway i'll trust only Ricehigh review, the K20D seems made just for him To me, D300 + K20 + nothing really huge from Canon = really big market changes.

02-14-2008, 03:14 AM	#24
schufosi777 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Kitakyushu Posts: 186	I am looking forward to some of the indepth reviews like those from Dpreview and Imaging Resource for example where I can look at standardised samples and compare with other cameras. Then Ill be better able to judge things like noise and color accuracy. Numbers dont tell the whole picture. That wasnt meant as a pun. Still regardless of the written conclusion I am more able to make my own assessment with standardised visual sample. Bring the reviews on.

02-14-2008, 04:10 AM	#25
christinelandon Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 812	Originally posted by Tom M ...snip...PopPhoto is the most irresponsible reviewer out there. Tom, does that mean that Emily whatsername from a couple weeks back has moved up a notch in your opinion?

02-14-2008, 05:25 AM	#26
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by benjikan I won't say what I think as I was attacked on that site for soliciting Pentax...I don't want to have to wash my mouth out with soap. Therefore No Comment.... No, I won't go there...It is a positive review yes, but "Just" enough stuff to not irritate their BIG ADVERTISERS. Do you really think Canon or Nikon would pull ads if the magazine said too nice of things about the competition? I don't think it works that way. For example, I see Microsoft ads all the time in Linux Magazine. And they say outright mean things about Microsoft. In general, magazines are served much better by trying to be absolutely neutral, and most take that really seriously. If anything PopPhoto's bias seems to be in finding at least something nice to say about everything.

02-14-2008, 06:23 AM	#27
Harald Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 259	Originally posted by mattdm Do you really think Canon or Nikon would pull ads if the magazine said too nice of things about the competition? I don't think it works that way. For example, I see Microsoft ads all the time in Linux Magazine. And they say outright mean things about Microsoft. In general, magazines are served much better by trying to be absolutely neutral, and most take that really seriously. If anything PopPhoto's bias seems to be in finding at least something nice to say about everything. As far as I know they have done just that several times and also threatened to do so, if magazines/reviewers attitude change to more favorable..... last case is just few weeks old...

02-14-2008, 06:41 AM	#28
Kaimarx Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Auckland Photos: Gallery Posts: 452	Perhaps the bias thats being referred to has more to do with familiarity than it does with brand loyalty. These reviewers most likely have either a Canon or a Nikon camera for personal usage or at least by now are very familiar with their cameras. I know when i first got the K10 it took a while to find out all the little "tips and tricks", the settings for best results so on and so forth (and most if not all of that came from browsing through good ol PF). Now a Pentax camera comes into the office for review and the Canon/Nikon shooter who probably spent just as much time learning the "tips and tricks" of his/her camera has to start from scratch again most probably all within a limited time...end result turns out to be: Use the camera as is with everything on default..... Reveiwers probably need to hire people who actually use the different brands and who are familiar with its traits like a Pentax guy for the K20, a Nikon shooter for the D300 etc... that would make a fairly interesting and level playing field and a review well worth sitting through.

02-14-2008, 07:08 AM	#29
codiac2600 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Rockford, Illinois Posts: 2,027	Originally posted by lol101 I don't see any bias here: they have a testing procedure and apply it to each camera. Fair enough, it's the rule of the game. Reviews are prospective buyers's tools for comparative assesment of different cameras. Now imagine you're a prospective buyer and want to compare 40D, E3, A700 and D300 to K20. 95% of prospective buyers will take the ratings and do the comparison: based on that, which one would you buy? I don't work for Pentax but if I did, I wouldn't be pleased to see my latest offering trailing at the end of the pack in noise, color accuracy, DR, AF speed and overall IQ in jpeg... do people read Pop Photo and give it credit for its reviews? I personally think it's a positive review but there are some areas that they made big mistakes on their end. They said the Sony A700 takes better images because of color accuracy, but in their own test on the A700 they rate to color worse than the Pentax 8.9 vs 7.9. It's bad book keeping on their end and it shouldn't happen. They also state the A700 shake reduction is slightly superior to the K20D which they give both a 3 stop advantage too so I'm not seeing the whole advantage here and what the heck does slightly superior mean? They do that a lot in the review using big words to make something just a tad different sound huge. But overall after reading it they basically say it's better than an A700 Canon 40D, but doesn't hold a candle to the D300 except in resolution.

02-14-2008, 07:16 AM	#30
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by Kaimarx Reveiwers probably need to hire people who actually use the different brands and who are familiar with its traits like a Pentax guy for the K20, a Nikon shooter for the D300 etc... that would make a fairly interesting and level playing field and a review well worth sitting through. And it'd be interesting for each review to have a short blurb from the users of the other systems.