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03-14-2013, 04:02 PM   #316
mee
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
No, that was a fact. This proves that indeed people like me (who can make the difference between facts and opinions) need to spell it out.
Of course, you are welcome to demonstrate that Sigma "wins rather massively when it comes to build quality and reliability". If you can. Or you can keep it going with those stupid strawmen, since it's allowed on this forum (unlike some rude acronyms).

I think you missed the humor in my post through your overly seriousness. This is an internet forum for cameras.. not the battleground of the ages. If you wish to waste your time fighting an invisible battle that cannot be won.. knock yourself out. A couple of us have already tried to help you and you've pushed us aside.

03-14-2013, 04:08 PM   #317
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And, back on topic, I'd like to see Pentax release more WR lenses more than just about anything. Especially fast zooms. This will become considerably more useful in the future...
03-14-2013, 06:30 PM   #318
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Easy: because I wanted to make clear that affirmations like "Sigma wins rather massively when it comes to build quality and reliability" are unsubstantiated, and far from being accepted as an universal truth by Pentaxians. Why are you posting
I don't see any Sigma failures anywhere near the levels of the complete failure that the Pentax 16-50 is. Plus at least Sigma tries to rectify any real problems rather than Pentax's lack of a solution in ignoring their customers. And it's not just the 16-50, but other Pentax lens as well. And did i mention the original K-5 sensor burn issue?

For those wanting to compare build quality; take a trip to ones well stocked camera store. I'll compare the Sigma 24-70 against literally any existing Pentax lens. That's also not an isolated example.

Conclusion, The Pentax name falls by the wayside to Sigma in both reliability and build quality.
03-15-2013, 12:50 AM   #319
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16-50 is one lens, perhaps the most problematic one (but not as much as in its early days) and, while there might be few other problematic lenses, that's not enough to substantiate a generalization like yours.

24-70 is also one lens, and sure the EX series is nicely crafted, others are less so. For example, there's nothing equivalent to the Limiteds (yes, I know, a Sigma zoom is much better built than a Limited ). Massive win? Yeah, sure.

Sigma lenses can and will fail, and on Lensrental the worst two lenses are the 120-300 and the 50-500. It was only in the recent years that Sigma's reputation started to change for the better.
Indeed, Sigma recalled some batches of lenses for focus issues and Pentax didn't. And has that little USB dock which allows you to update the firmware when a compatibility problem will appear.

K-5... same story, is one camera - and the most problematic launch in Pentax' history; I'll give you that, the best Sigma cameras might be better than the worst Pentax one. The current DSLRs, i.e. the K-30 and K-5 II(s), are pretty much troublefree (and Nikons aren't), so how can Sigma win "massively"?

Conclusion?
QuoteQuote:
Bashing: Deliberately and repeatedly bashing the same brand, product or company. If you have a complaint or comment to make, make it once and make sure you have facts to support it.


03-15-2013, 04:04 AM   #320
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I'm not sure I would equate the failures that Lens Rentals has with actual lens problems. When you constantly turn over a fine piece of gear to UPS or USPS it's only a matter of time before something happens. No matter how well something is packed, the risk of damage, either internal or external, is increased substantially. Both my 70 and 105 macro lenses from Sigma are well built. Much better than my DA lenses, probably not quite as good as my limited, though they are a bit less expensive as well. As with Pentax glass, it's pick and choose. There are some very good ones, and there are some mediocre ones.

Last edited by wildimages; 03-15-2013 at 04:20 AM.
03-15-2013, 04:47 AM   #321
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildimages Quote
I'm not sure I would equate the failures that Lens Rentals has with actual lens problems. When you constantly turn over a fine piece of gear to UPS or USPS it's only a matter of time before something happens
Agreed.
03-15-2013, 05:04 AM   #322
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It's indeed a stress test and should not be directly compared with figures obtained with normal usage patterns.
Please note that I'm only challenging the idea that Sigma is "massively better". I know there are very good Sigma lenses, and below average Pentax lenses; and I'm well aware of the issues the 16-50 had. By the way, how many owners of a relatively recent 16-50 would agree that's it's much worse than a LensBaby?
03-15-2013, 09:02 AM   #323
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I guess I am missing the post where someone compared the 16 50 to a lens baby?

On the other hand, I wouldn't know because the 16 50 is an SDM lens, and, I wont buy one until Pentax offers something more than a 1 year warranty on lenses with SDM (back on topic, they want to know what I think, well, there it is) I know that some have said they have solved the issue with SDM, and I know that Pentax claims they don't have the statistics to prove there is a problem with SDM, but there was a post on this forum not more than a month ago where a member received a brand new DA* 200 that was DOA.

Even if Sigma has a problem with their HSM, their warranty makes me feel safer buying their product instead of a Pentax version, all else being equal. In that one circumstance alone, Sigma wins hands down in my opinion. If their lens fails in 13 months, I can get it fixed at no or little cost to me. Can Pentax say the same?

On the flip side, I am not a huge Sigma fan because they have given the cold shoulder to Pentax shooters by not offering some of their better lenses in the K mount, and discontinuing others. But I would buy a Sigma HSM lens way before I would ever buy a Pentax SDM lens.

03-15-2013, 09:41 AM   #324
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Search Medium FormatPro's posts.

The warranty is regional, for example where I live both Sigma and Pentax have the standard (in Europe) 2 years warranty.
I'm not convinced by the 16-50 either, and I don't think it's really deserving a * rating (optically and otherwise). I also firmly believe * lenses should have ring-type SDM or equivalent, instead of the consumer-level micromotors. But that's not enough to loudly declare Sigma's victory over everything Pentax

Not having SDM issues anymore doesn't mean zero defects. Products will always fail, unless we'll be willing to spend much, much more on over-engineering and quality control, and regular maintenance - and then they'll still fail.

Would you buy an OS lens? In-lens stabilization is known to adversely affect reliability.

My reasoning for not buying Sigma is that Pentax needs my money more than they do (which would not matter if I would need/want a lens only made by Sigma). It also happens that I like Limiteds, and this steers me away from most EX lenses

Last edited by Kunzite; 03-15-2013 at 09:47 AM.
03-15-2013, 10:35 AM   #325
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Well here in the US, the warranty is only one year on Pentax glass. To be perfectly honest, 2 years would really tip me in the direction of at least one SDM lens.

I understand what you are saying about Zero Defects, and again, that is why they really need to increase the warranty on SDM glass. I know things happen, but with the reputation that SDM glass has, I have this sinking feeling it's not if, but when the motor will fail. A bit more protection would certainly ease that fear, real or imagined.

As for OS lenses, since I do most of my shooting from a tripod, OS is not something I care much about. Nor is SR for that matter. But with some Sigma lenses, you can only get them in OS so.....I suppose I would if I needed (wanted really) that lens. But again, the warranty period for Sigma lenses here in the US is much greater than that for Pentax glass.

I don't know if Pentax needs the money more than Sigma, or anyone else for that matter. I do know that 15 days shy of 1 year into UPP, I cannot buy a Pentax lens from my local camera store, and they don't even carry the K5II or K5IIs. As a matter of fact, they don't even have a Pentax sign in their window. Which, when considering they are the largest camera store chain in New England, doesn't speak well of Pentax's marketing ability or the new guys ability to get things rolling here in the US. So if they need money, they don't seem to be doing much or at least having much success in trying to generate it here.

Like you, I love the limited lenses, and my old M 50 1.7 too. I am not much of a Zoom Fan, though I do carry a 16 45 attached to my K20 in my everyday carry bag. But I prefer the primes. I would love to put them to work in your beautiful country one day.
03-15-2013, 10:52 AM   #326
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There's a heck of a lot more to B&M store distribution than just easing the online price advantage. I'm not apologising, just explaining.
  1. Sales Rep coverage
    1. They are expensive - commissions, healthcare, retirement, travel, car
  2. Education / Workshops to support B&M store traffic
    1. Require in-house personnel infrastructure and content creation
    2. Which is expensive
    3. Pentax doesn't seem to do anything in-house any more. It's all contract outsourced.
  3. General Marketing and advertising for brand awareness
    1. An expensive, long-term commitment - a few ads then quit won't cut it
    2. Justin Bieber endorsement doesn't come cheap
      1. Maybe Tiger Woods, but that's a damaged property
      2. Who is a recognized, outdoor celebrity?
  4. More attractive Dealer Agreement
    1. It is a real challenge to meet the minimum annual order when product market share is so small
    2. Increasing market share requires 1, 2 and 3, which are expensive
  5. Extending Dealer Credit at attractive terms
    1. Bank of Pentax is probably not a business Ricoh really wants to be in.
I'm sure there are other business expenses and that taken together would reduce the profit margin on all Pentax Gear sold in the US to an unacceptable level at their current market share. Unless Ricoh really does commit to a multi-year business plan that assumes reduced profit margin in the short term to build presence and share (and finally profit margin) in the long term I don't see much immediate progress in B&M distribution (new announcements in Denver and Tacoma to the contrary).

What I find truly interesting is what I have written about recently that I read in securities industry analyst comments. Analysts openly consider a decision by Ricoh to invest significant money in DigiCams a threat to short term profits and the stock price. They call it an investment risk (from their perspective). That means Ricoh must be openly discussing the possibility with security analysts. The restructuring plan is supposed to be complete in about 12 months - which is about when I expect James Malcolm will have completed his survey and business plan for PRI Americas. We've heard whispers here that Pentax National Account Reps are saying good things are coming - I believe them. The pace of this just feels right to me (of course it is much slower than we want!!).

Lastly, James Malcolm plain and simply has some relationships to mend. Many, many dealers were good and loyal friends to Pentax and were summarily thrown under the bus by the prior management team. I know for a fact this is true in St. Louis with Creve Couer Camera. As recently as two 1/2 years ago CCC did Co-Op radio and spot TV ads for the holiday specials (I forget now which body), but not since.

Were I a small business owner happily selling scads of Nikon, Canon, Sony, Olympus and even Fuji products and Pentax knocked on my door I'd probably call my bouncer.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-15-2013 at 11:03 AM.
03-15-2013, 11:06 AM   #327
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Last edited by beholder3; 08-12-2013 at 01:35 AM.
03-15-2013, 07:17 PM   #328
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
... The restructuring plan is supposed to be complete in about 12 months - which is about when I expect James Malcolm will have completed his survey and business plan for PRI Americas. We've heard whispers here that Pentax National Account Reps are saying good things are coming - I believe them. The pace of this just feels right to me (of course it is much slower than we want!!)..
Damn. I thought they have a magic wand or something ...
So, by the most optimistic estimate, shall at least our kids see the benefits of good things that are coming?
03-15-2013, 08:42 PM   #329
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Originally posted by monochrome
... The restructuring plan is supposed to be complete in about 12 months - which is about when I expect James Malcolm will have completed his survey and business plan for PRI Americas. We've heard whispers here that Pentax National Account Reps are saying good things are coming - I believe them. The pace of this just feels right to me (of course it is much slower than we want!!)..


So they introduce UPP, then they do the survey, then they plan how they are going to implement it? Is that what you're saying?
03-16-2013, 08:18 AM   #330
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