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12-21-2012, 11:45 AM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by Racer X 69 Quote
Sorry Doc, but Google translate doesn't get it.
Try Icelandic

12-21-2012, 11:49 AM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
The problem with that theory is Nikon is doing fine with their F mount and Sigma, Tamron et al. don't seem to have a problem with it. The issue with 3rd party support for the K has had more do with other factors. In the case with Tokina, part of it was "entanglements" with Hoya and Pentax etc. Plus, it hasn't been a problem for Sigma and Tammy in the past, why would it suddenly become one?
And the problem with that theory is that Pentax is not Nikon -- Nikon is on top, Pentax is on the bottom. The "problem" for third-party makers is of course cost -- Nikon can do whatever they want and the other makers will be forced to follow. But for a brand with no market share anymore -- the more complicated it is with special mechanics needed the less likely they are to bother supporting it. If Pentax takes off again, they will support it again naturally whatever the mount.
12-21-2012, 12:05 PM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
The K-mount is clunky and it is certainly holding them back technologically and makes third-party support more difficult -- that can't hold forever.
I'm gonna hold your feet to the fire on this, Mr. Baloney.

In what way is K-mount "holding them back"? The only limitation I can think of is camera thickness, front-to-back. And for a hypothetical FF body, I don't see that as much of a drawback.

Is there something else that can't be addressed by minor backwards-compatible modifications to the existing mount?

Third party manufacturers know how to build for K-mount; they have done it for decades. It's not that they can't -- it's that they don't feel the need to. A new mount doesn't solve that problem.
12-21-2012, 12:26 PM   #154
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just a noob question, why is K mount obsolete compared to modern mounts? Thanks for explaining

12-21-2012, 01:10 PM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ivan_M Quote
just a noob question, why is K mount obsolete compared to modern mounts? Thanks for explaining
K-mount has a register distance (the distance from the front of the mount to the film/sensor) of 45.46mm. This is a fundamental constraint on how thin a K-mount camera can be. With film, the only stuff behind the shutter was the film and back, so a K1000 was only 49mm thick, total. A dSLR like the K-5 has about 20mm worth of sensor, shake reduction gear, circuit board, LCD, and LCD glass behind the shutter. Canon and Nikon's 35mm mounts are about the same, so the register distance is not a huge liability compared to other legacy mounts.

However, many of the "modern" mounts, like Micro 4/3, have a register distance around 20mm, less than half that of legacy mounts. This allows the bodies to be much thinner, or to have extra room for features like articulated LCDs. The Olympus OM-D has an articulated screen and image stabilization, and is STILL only 41mm front-to-back. The shorter register distance also allows them to use simple adapters for multiple legacy mounts, while the K-mount generally would need an adapter with additional optics to get infinity focus on other-mount lenses.
12-21-2012, 01:17 PM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
A mirrorless 645D would make sense. That huge mirror slows things down, introduces the potential for blur, and makes the camera much bigger than it needs to be

I'm going to try to get my friend to translate this properly tomorrow if we don't get any Japanese-speakers to chime in.
Large Format was always mirrorless. Now 645 is the new, more economical LF.
12-21-2012, 02:26 PM   #157
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Apparently the new VP for Pentax Americas has offered to get an official translation of the interview. Yeah! No offense to our PF colleagues but if Pentax Japan provides the translation then even the subtle implications in the interview are more likely to be accurately reflected in the translation. In any event, it will provide more grist for the PF mill
12-21-2012, 03:22 PM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote

QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Time to leave this thread. It's not about translating what was said, it's just the same old bickering about FF.
1Actually arguing about whether or not to ditch K-mount!
It appears to me that this whole "Full Frame" issue is something that many of you are very passionate about.

Me? Meh. I really don't care. After dropping about $600 for the *iStDL to replace my film SLR, almost a grand for the K10D, and just about a grand for lenses, I'm not gonna run right out and jump on another camera anytime soon, even if it does have "Full Frame".

I have come to enjoy the digital side of photography, even at the 6.1 and 10.2 megapixels of the two cameras I have. I only went for the K10D because I thought that 10.2 megapixels was a pretty good jump, only to see the K20D jump to 14.6 megapixels 2 years later. I'm done chasing megapixels for now. No, I'm gonna wait a while before I lay down another large chunk of change for a bump in megapixels. And full frame or not, it really makes very little difference to me so long as the image quality is good.

Hey, even at 30% smaller the amount of data in a single image today is every bit as good as we ever got from a 35mm Kodachrome slide, right?

12-21-2012, 03:27 PM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Pay attention that Kitazawa says about bigger diameter of new mount and short focal range. I don't think that it's only WORDS.
I don't think they are just words either. There is a mirror-less FF option developing, that's almost sure.
And if they do it in time, they will deliver an option that no other manufacturer offers. So it fits their own words of 'Pentax will be unique in its offerings'.

As for the K-mount, I think that FF-DSLR can continue using the K-mount, optical VF, legacy lenses, etc. even if it means no shake reduction for whatever reason (say, to keep the body really small, similar to K-5). So K-mount people will be happy and there is nothing wrong with it.

But I think official's answers in this, and other interviews, go through a jumble of ideas. They are not tailored to deliberately show a clear answer, or a clear path because that would polarise people before they even see *what* exactly and *how* exactly all things work together. Add to this Ricoh's own cameras, and we get a total confusion.

But if Pentax were to make a brand new mirror-less system for the 2013 onwards, then they can simply skip the Sony's exercise with NEX and the APS-C sensor, and go directly into the FF territory no one has tackled yet in a mirror-less system. And be there at least a few months ahead of Sony or Fuji.

Last edited by Uluru; 12-21-2012 at 03:37 PM.
12-21-2012, 03:29 PM   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by Racer X 69 Quote
*sigh*

Probably not.

QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Ert r gamla daga?
QuoteOriginally posted by Racer X 69 Quote
Sorry Doc, but Google translate doesn't get it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Try Icelandic
g hlt a a vri eitthva svoleiis. Og j, j g er! Takk fyrir tunguml jrf!

12-21-2012, 03:30 PM   #161
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The Sony a99
12-21-2012, 04:16 PM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Pay attention that Kitazawa says about bigger diameter of new mount and short focal range. I don't think that it's only WORDS.
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I don't think they are just words either. There is a mirror-less FF option developing, that's almost sure.
And if they do it in time, they will deliver an option that no other manufacturer offers. So it fits their own words of 'Pentax will be unique in its offerings'.
They are words, taken out of their context.
If putting the context back, Kitazawa-san is only talking about how would a new mount be; indeed, a new mount would be a MILC mount because it makes no sense to reinvent the K-mount. However, he also said how a DSLR / keeping the K-mount is the preferred option, for a number of reasons.
I don't know what's happening in their labs, but I'm reasonably certain a new mount is not prepared for a market launch.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
But if Pentax were to make a brand new mirror-less system for the 2013 onwards, then they can simply skip the Sony's exercise with NEX and the APS-C sensor, and go directly into the FF territory no one has tackled yet in a mirror-less system. And be there at least a few months ahead of Sony or Fuji.
Assuming the FF MILC is a good idea, please explain:
- why wouldn't Sony be there faster, since they already have all the know-how and technology - Pentax having to develop them?
- even if Pentax would be faster, would it really matters when the others would have their products on the market, as well?
- rushing to the market with the FF MILC, this means postponing or even canceling the K-mount plans. Since their revenues comes (mostly) from the K-mount, how would it affect them?
- the Sony's exercise was obviously a strategy which worked; they would've gone straight to FF if that was better. What's different for Pentax?
- a FF MILC, one camera system, costing over $2000 body only (difficult, Nikon was able to do it only because they reused technologies), how much market share would it gather? Are you trying to push Pentax into a niche? Would it really be profitable?
12-21-2012, 06:30 PM - 1 Like   #163
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Ricoh bought Pentax, and its primary asset was the K mount and customer base. Why would they ditch the K mount now?

A 645 mirrorless (Mamiya 6 or 7 style) would be awesome, but not for my pocket, sadly.

Pentax is not about to build the smallest FF camera system (at least not in K mount): Leica does that now. Sony may join in with a FF NEX. Leica and Sigma have had all sorts of problems with color casts in the corners of wide angle lens.

Why does everybody seem to think APS-C is so bad? It's not. It just happens to compete with FF on one side and 4/3 on the other. Just like FF is between MF and APS-C... With aps-c, you get plenty of bokeh, significantly more reach than FF, a little more DOF for macros, a smaller mirror to move... For me 16 mpx is plenty, and it affords cheap speed (fps and buffer). DR is awesome, high iso is great and will only get better. With the DA limiteds, it's much smaller than competitors FF... The K5 is at the top of that hill, they should keep expanding their APS-C line. I do think Pentax should launch a pro aps-c body before anything else. With dual card readers, a top-shelf AF system with good tracking abilities and dedicated AF point control buttons, and 100% magnification viewfinder. I wouldn't mind a built-in grip, as mine is glued on the K5. I do like the Pentax approach to getting more resolution, with AA-less sensors and aparently in-mody anti-moire: it keeps the low noise as well as the high-speed performance.

That said, i would like a FF Pentax as well: I will get much more out of my legacy glass, which is already stressed by the 16mpx aps-c sensor. They could start with a FF camera that is friendly to legacy glass users as well as newer DA users. Friendly to old glass users could mean a split-prism focusing screen option, and focus peaking. They could also provide a hood for hand-held live-view. Friendly to DA users means a crop mode. This would give Pentax more time to develop their FF lens lineup, and less haste for us to build a FF lens system. They could also beef up video capabilities - all those Taks are being bought by Canonites for video.. Again, a factory hood would be nice. Finally, they should fit it with the MX's huuuuge viewfinder.
12-21-2012, 06:48 PM   #164
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agreed

QuoteOriginally posted by miles Quote
Ricoh bought Pentax, and its primary asset was the K mount and customer base. Why would they ditch the K mount now?

A 645 mirrorless (Mamiya 6 or 7 style) would be awesome, but not for my pocket, sadly.

Pentax is not about to build the smallest FF camera system (at least not in K mount): Leica does that now. Sony may join in with a FF NEX. Leica and Sigma have had all sorts of problems with color casts in the corners of wide angle lens.

Why does everybody seem to think APS-C is so bad? It's not. It just happens to compete with FF on one side and 4/3 on the other. Just like FF is between MF and APS-C... With aps-c, you get plenty of bokeh, significantly more reach than FF, a little more DOF for macros, a smaller mirror to move... For me 16 mpx is plenty, and it affords cheap speed (fps and buffer). DR is awesome, high iso is great and will only get better. With the DA limiteds, it's much smaller than competitors FF... The K5 is at the top of that hill, they should keep expanding their APS-C line. I do think Pentax should launch a pro aps-c body before anything else. With dual card readers, a top-shelf AF system with good tracking abilities and dedicated AF point control buttons, and 100% magnification viewfinder. I wouldn't mind a built-in grip, as mine is glued on the K5. I do like the Pentax approach to getting more resolution, with AA-less sensors and aparently in-mody anti-moire: it keeps the low noise as well as the high-speed performance.

That said, i would like a FF Pentax as well: I will get much more out of my legacy glass, which is already stressed by the 16mpx aps-c sensor. They could start with a FF camera that is friendly to legacy glass users as well as newer DA users. Friendly to old glass users could mean a split-prism focusing screen option, and focus peaking. They could also provide a hood for hand-held live-view. Friendly to DA users means a crop mode. This would give Pentax more time to develop their FF lens lineup, and less haste for us to build a FF lens system. They could also beef up video capabilities - all those Taks are being bought by Canonites for video.. Again, a factory hood would be nice. Finally, they should fit it with the MX's huuuuge viewfinder.
Nicely said, good summary of what many value-oriented enthusiasts think. I think Pentax has an overabundance of people who straddle the hobbyist---semi-pro categories but who are also economical with their money. Similarly, I have no need for a full frame but don't mind professional level gear being developed to pros, full frame AND APS-C. I will continue to get the APS-C gear as it becomes discontinued but only buy highest IQ lenses. So, I am not an early adopter. The early adopters are the ones who can drive sales of new gear with new (hopefully better and more useful) features - like, Engineers, Pro Photographers, and daughters of incumbent politicians......

12-21-2012, 06:50 PM   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
K-mount has a register distance (the distance from the front of the mount to the film/sensor) of 45.46mm. This is a fundamental constraint on how thin a K-mount camera can be. With film, the only stuff behind the shutter was the film and back, so a K1000 was only 49mm thick, total. A dSLR like the K-5 has about 20mm worth of sensor, shake reduction gear, circuit board, LCD, and LCD glass behind the shutter. Canon and Nikon's 35mm mounts are about the same, so the register distance is not a huge liability compared to other legacy mounts.

However, many of the "modern" mounts, like Micro 4/3, have a register distance around 20mm, less than half that of legacy mounts. This allows the bodies to be much thinner, or to have extra room for features like articulated LCDs. The Olympus OM-D has an articulated screen and image stabilization, and is STILL only 41mm front-to-back. The shorter register distance also allows them to use simple adapters for multiple legacy mounts, while the K-mount generally would need an adapter with additional optics to get infinity focus on other-mount lenses.
If that is the case, then Nikon and Canon dSLR mounts are obsolete, especially Nikon given it has very close to the same registration distance.
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