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12-21-2012, 07:01 PM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by miles Quote
Ricoh bought Pentax, and its primary asset was the K mount and customer base. Why would they ditch the K mount now?

Why are you guys discussing this? They have no plans of ditching the K-mount...

12-21-2012, 07:08 PM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Why are you guys discussing this? They have no plans of ditching the K-mount...
Because the other side of the discussion is talking about how old, obsolete and large the k-mount is and it needs replaced with a more modern mount like Nikon has.
12-21-2012, 11:17 PM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
They are words, taken out of their context.
If putting the context back, Kitazawa-san is only talking about how would a new mount be; indeed, a new mount would be a MILC mount because it makes no sense to reinvent the K-mount. However, he also said how a DSLR / keeping the K-mount is the preferred option, for a number of reasons.
I don't know what's happening in their labs, but I'm reasonably certain a new mount is not prepared for a market launch.
No one knows how far it is in preparation. It could be nearing the launch, though, but just stacking enough lenses.

QuoteQuote:
Assuming the FF MILC is a good idea, please explain:
- why wouldn't Sony be there faster, since they already have all the know-how and technology - Pentax having to develop them?
I'm not sure about that. I presume that both Pentax and Sony are heading in the same direction.
However, Pentax won't introduce as much confusion among its user base as Sony will, because Pentax doesn't have another mirror-less mount like Sony does.

QuoteQuote:
- even if Pentax would be faster, would it really matters when the others would have their products on the market, as well?
Well maybe. But let's make some things clear: both Sony and Fuji admitted their mirrorless mounts do no not support FF size of the sensor.
So Pentax starts a game from afresh, with very clear offering and not alienating its customer base.

QuoteQuote:
- rushing to the market with the FF MILC, this means postponing or even canceling the K-mount plans. Since their revenues comes (mostly) from the K-mount, how would it affect them?
Are you married? If so, would your family be confused if suddenly instead of one stream of revenue (yours) your wife also brings in extra money at home? I don't understand why some new mirror-less mount would inflict K-mount in any way, especially because products would be complimentary. There are many advantages in the DSLR product, and there are many advantages going for mirror-less FF. They can both coexist and NOT cannibalise sales of each. In fact, they would expand both user bases.

QuoteQuote:
- the Sony's exercise was obviously a strategy which worked; they would've gone straight to FF if that was better. What's different for Pentax?
Sony did their mirror-less system a few years ago, when the price of production of FF sensors was dramatically higher. Yet they wanted users buying their cameras immediately. Fuji is in the same boat, as they wanted to lure in new users, and could do it with a product competitively priced as Sony's. During the development of NEX and Fuji's X, only an APS-C sized sensor enabled such an economy.

But times change rapidly. If Pentax is to wait for the launch of its mirror-less FF system till the end of 2013, they'll do it for a reason; they are waiting the right economy of scale moment, when the prices of FF sensors are low enough to enable users fewer second thoughts about whether to purchase a camera or not.

See Sony's RX1 now — to many it's an interesting product, but many will wait when it hits a price below $2000 at least.

QuoteQuote:
- a FF MILC, one camera system, costing over $2000 body only (difficult, Nikon was able to do it only because they reused technologies), how much market share would it gather? Are you trying to push Pentax into a niche? Would it really be profitable?
I believe Pentax is deliberately waiting for the end of 2013 to launch their mirror-less FF system, when the prices of FF sensors and their yield are bound to be much better. And I can bet that there'll be a camera plus lens combo for a much less than a $2K. Something like NEX 7 plus a lens today. But in year's time, NEX 7 is already an old drag compared to a new FF mirror-less camera that basically trounces it to bin.
12-22-2012, 12:53 AM   #169
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I think this interview lends weight to the idea that Pentax is going to release a full frame mirrorless camera. In the same interview last year, Kitazawa-san gave some pretty strong hints that they were working on it. This interview seems to have further details, so it seems their strategy has not changed. They could have been working on this for some time and could be closer to release than we think.

This makes a lot of sense. Pentax will be playing catch up if they release a new APS-C mirrorless mount. Even more so if they try to release a full frame DSLR - look how Sony has struggled to make a dent in Canon and Nikons business, despite having released some very capable, innovative and affordable full frame cameras over the years. A full frame morrorless camera will not have to be $2000. There's no mirror, prism, PDAF unit and probably no screw drive necessary, so the camera's design could be very small and compact. If the system uses in-lens stabilisation, that would further simplify things. Remember the SR in the 645D lens that Pentax reps didn't want to talk about at Photokina? The main delay is probably making sure they have the lenses and adapters in place to be taken seriously.

Another bit of news I read on a Japanese website recently was that Tamron has started patenting full frame mirrorless lens designs. This could be for Sony, but it shows that they can some future in this kind of camera.

Finally, the PDF is only half the interview. It ends with an unfinished sentence and doesn't address all the points in the summary. Last year's magazine has a double page spread for each manufacturer. I'm very intrigued by the Ricoh cameras too. Ricoh users on the other forum has been pretty disillusioned since nothing at all was announced in 2012.

12-22-2012, 01:07 AM   #170
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Have you see that video ?

very good one for Sony ! even if i still dont want a mirrorless, i have to say it look pretty good
12-22-2012, 02:32 AM   #171
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
No one knows how far it is in preparation. It could be nearing the launch, though, but just stacking enough lenses.
Pentax knows. And they keep telling us they would rather not make another mount.
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I'm not sure about that. I presume that both Pentax and Sony are heading in the same direction.
However, Pentax won't introduce as much confusion among its user base as Sony will, because Pentax doesn't have another mirror-less mount like Sony does.
Wait, what? Sony would use the NEX mount for their MILC FF, if they'll make one. Come on, people! What's with this obsession of not using perfectly working mounts?
Indeed, you're presuming things - contradicting what Pentax said.
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Well maybe. But let's make some things clear: both Sony and Fuji admitted their mirrorless mounts do no not support FF size of the sensor.
So Pentax starts a game from afresh, with very clear offering and not alienating its customer base.
Fuji, OK. Sony, nope: they already have a FF NEX-mount video camera: the VG900.
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Are you married? If so, would your family be confused if suddenly instead of one stream of revenue (yours) your wife also brings in extra money at home? I don't understand why some new mirror-less mount would inflict K-mount in any way, especially because products would be complimentary. There are many advantages in the DSLR product, and there are many advantages going for mirror-less FF. They can both coexist and NOT cannibalise sales of each. In fact, they would expand both user bases.
I'm afraid the comparison is not quite valid.
Pentax must work within their capacities (R&D, production...) constraints; the 3 existing mounts and the MILC mount would compete for the same resources.
To re-do your analogy, it's like you (not your wife) would try to take an extra job. Can you really work twice the 8 hours, i.e. 16 hours per day, plus extra time when required, plus lunch breaks and time taken to go between home and both work places?
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Sony did their mirror-less system a few years ago, when the price of production of FF sensors was dramatically higher. Yet they wanted users buying their cameras immediately. Fuji is in the same boat, as they wanted to lure in new users, and could do it with a product competitively priced as Sony's. During the development of NEX and Fuji's X, only an APS-C sized sensor enabled such an economy.
Food for thought: the new entry level FF cameras aren't cheaper than the A850.
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
But times change rapidly. If Pentax is to wait for the launch of its mirror-less FF system till the end of 2013, they'll do it for a reason; they are waiting the right economy of scale moment, when the prices of FF sensors are low enough to enable users fewer second thoughts about whether to purchase a camera or not.
Are they, really?
By the way, I will remind you that Pentax themselves favored the K-mount, instead of a new MILC mount - in more than one interview. Do you know something they don't?
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
See Sony's RX1 now — to many it's an interesting product, but many will wait when it hits a price below $2000 at least.
Oh, yes - the RX1. The proof Sony have everything they need to make a FF NEX, if they believe it would be profitable. A hint about how much it would cost.
What's about it? Are you trying to say it's failing on the market, because people aren't willing to pay for it? Then, why would Pentax take the risk, instead of going with the tried&true SLR way?
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I believe Pentax is deliberately waiting for the end of 2013 to launch their mirror-less FF system, when the prices of FF sensors and their yield are bound to be much better. And I can bet that there'll be a camera plus lens combo for a much less than a $2K. Something like NEX 7 plus a lens today. But in year's time, NEX 7 is already an old drag compared to a new FF mirror-less camera that basically trounces it to bin.
Your plan, summarized:
- screw the current customers, who for a long time are waiting for advancements in the K-mount arena.
- somehow you're expecting the FF sensors to be much cheaper than now (care to explain why?)
- somehow you're expecting the FF cameras to be much cheaper, even including full R&D costs (unless you'd like them to sell it at a loss). Under $1500, which is what people talking about the then-rumor D600 hoped for (and guess what...)
Do you honestly believe it's a good, realistic plan?

QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I think this interview lends weight to the idea that Pentax is going to release a full frame mirrorless camera. In the same interview last year, Kitazawa-san gave some pretty strong hints that they were working on it. This interview seems to have further details, so it seems their strategy has not changed. They could have been working on this for some time and could be closer to release than we think.
JPT, there was no such hint, of Pentax working on a MILC mount; on the contrary. Kitazawa-san talked about what it would mean to launch a MILC mount, he didn't rejected the idea (of course, Pentax will adapt if the market conditions changed) but: it wouldn't be easy, it would hurt the K-mount, they would rather keep going with the K-mount.
Let's not make things up from inaccurate memories, because we want for something to happen. Re-check the interview, see his actual words:
"it was our conclusion that APS-C should be the utmost size for mirrorless segment."
"First, we are discussing development of FF SLR. We are touching base with a sensor manufacturer and proceeding the process of development towards production."
"Pentax is also responsible to existing users for continuously pioneering the market and enhance K-Mount system."
From here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/201538-dc-watch-interv...velopment.html

QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Because the other side of the discussion is talking about how old, obsolete and large the k-mount is and it needs replaced with a more modern mount like Nikon has.
Well said. I really wish the K-mount was as modern as the F-mount
12-22-2012, 05:55 AM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Because the other side of the discussion is talking about how old, obsolete and large the k-mount is and it needs replaced with a more modern mount like Nikon has.
Canon has no FF EVIL with EOS mount. Canon has no APS-C EVIL with EOS mount.
Nikon has no FF EVIL with F-mount. Nikon has no APS-C EVIL camera with F-mount.
The answer to the question "WHY NO?" is simple.

If Pentax want to be different from Canon, Nikon and Sony, they should make something absolutely different.
Nor SLT, neither classical FF

What is it?

The idea of interview is simple too...Pentax will make FF camera never been before...


To survive and get profit, they should produce the camera for EVERYBODY. Not only for old users with ancient lenses.
To make classical FF DLSR - no any chance to be successful for Pentax.

Are you agreed?

Last edited by ogl; 12-22-2012 at 06:01 AM.
12-22-2012, 06:22 AM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I think this interview lends weight to the idea that Pentax is going to release a full frame mirrorless camera. .
No. It says exactly the oposite. Earlier this year they said that won't make mirrorless with larger sensors than APS (for the time being at least).

12-22-2012, 06:25 AM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
No. It says exactly the oposite. Earlier this year they said that won't make mirrorless with larger sensors than APS (for the time being at least).
Show me, please, this place in new interview and in old one...
12-22-2012, 07:35 AM   #175
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A translated quote from the old interview is in my previous post, but the source is this forum, same section - one should just have to look below this thread, to find it. Very descriptive title, as well (DC Watch: Interview with Toshiyuki Kitazawa, Pentax's Head of Business Development)
A translation for the new interview is in this very topic, 3rd page. You are just using your laziness as a pro-MILC argument...

By the way, if Pentax wants to be different than Sony, maybe they should not try to copy the rumored NEX FF.
12-22-2012, 07:45 AM   #176
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For full frame there is just no particular benefit to a shorter registration distance or new mount. Screw drive is a separate issue and if Pentax wants to convert over existing lenses to ring motors, I guess I am fine with that, although by definition, it will shorten the lifespan of lenses like the FA limiteds. I just don't see the size of lens body combos shrinking that much with a new mount.

What is wrong with the K mount? Nothing.
12-22-2012, 08:52 AM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
A translated quote from the old interview is in my previous post, .
What will you say if Pentax make some changes in K-mount for FF camera?
12-22-2012, 08:53 AM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote

By the way, if Pentax wants to be different than Sony, maybe they should not try to copy the rumored NEX FF.
No copy NEX FF...
12-22-2012, 09:25 AM   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
What will you say if Pentax make some changes in K-mount for FF camera?
What do you mean by "some changes"? Is that speculation, rumor, inside information? Be more specific please, so I can actually have an opinion about it.
12-22-2012, 11:09 AM   #180
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Spending habits of a frugal enthusiast. OK, I am an "old" user of about 15 years, some of my lenses are 40 years old. Some are 1 month old.

Looking at my purchase history over the past 4 years, I have purchased $2500 of lenses, $1000 of which were Pentax brand new with USA warranty. That's 1000/2500=40% of my hard earned dollars going towards Pentax. Not to mention that most of the used lenses I bought were from PF members who then in turn purchased new equipment of some sort (at least that was the stated intentions of selling the used stuff).

Furthermore, I have purchased three Pentax bodies for $950, one of which is new including the $20 three year extended warranty. So, 336/936=36% of my hard earned moola is going to Pentax. Almost the same as the lens percentage.

IF Pentax wants to keep my business, then I will gladly keep pushing 40% of my money to them to help them fund new development. I betcha I am similar to a lot of you on this forum and we represent Pentax's bulk sales. Don't be fooled by arguments that say they need to ditch the K-mount. If it were not for the K-mount, I would have long ago traded in for Nikon and enjoy similar prices for used gear and more supply and choice (less holes in their auto-focus lens line-up, for instance).

To play devil's advocate with myself, if I were starting from scratch today, I might be very tempted at the Olympus OMD EM-5 four-thirds system. The smaller sensor allows for a more compact system, including lens size. So, for me, I stick with Pentax if they continue to give me economical choices, or I jump to newer technology using a different sensor and platform. Full frame does not even enter into my picture (like I said earlier, I am not against FF, just don't take away new development for APS-C).

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