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12-23-2012, 03:13 AM   #196
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[| o ], thank you for the translation.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I did not say that. I'm not sure why you think that I think K-mount should be abandoned?
I think the opposite: K-mount should continue and be healthy. DSLR products are important. In many areas DSLR mirror camera with a bright optical viewfinder is absolutely indispensable.
I don't think they can put some serious effort into a new MILC system, and leave the K-mount unaffected; the resources are limited. The interview (again, thanks to [| o ] for the translation) gives a similar, "MILC-mount or K-mount" feeling. And Kitazawa-san should know what resources they have.
It's not entirely impossible, I agree; but we're talking about the tiny little Pentax, which has already 3 mounts to take care of. Maybe in the future, after some serious growth, they will be able to do it, who knows?

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
But for a mirror-less large sensor mount, I see no point for Pentax-Ricoh in making a new APS-C mount like Sony, Fuji, Canon and Samsung did. Pentax came in late to this game, and perhaps that's not a bad thing after all. They have also gathered a lot of experience in making a mirror-less system with Q mount.
Indeed, that would be copying the others; is that really a good idea?
However... at least Sony can make a FF NEX very fast if they want to, they already have the VG900. I don't believe for a second Pentax would have and maintain some kind of exclusivity... if the MILC FF idea makes sense.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
What encourages me to think positively about their new mirror-less FF is that if they have succeeded to make such a fabulous photographer's tool with a Q camera which is has superb handling I can only imagine how exquisite an FF can be. Therefore I don't even consider touching offers like Canon's M or Fuji's X, because in comparison, they are less than pale. They are immature, half-baked products in fact.
But what if the market wants point&shoot-like, cheap MILCs, with Android and touch screen? What if they'll ignore serious photographic tools, because they're not resembling their smartphones?

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
It's the economy of scale. FF sensor technology and yield has become almost affordable to many, and will deliver excellent cost vs performance ratio very soon. Falconeye has already analysed this in great detail. Thus in conclusion, not to invest in design of a FF mirror-less camera system would be a foolish delay for Pentax-Ricoh.
Falconeye is very knowledgeable, but he can be wrong at times; I don't think he predicted a soon-to-come sensor cost reduction, though. You are also making a leap of faith from FF to FF MILC. Why does it have to be a MILC? What's wrong with some camera makers putting their efforts into DSLRs? What's wrong with diversity?

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I think that a mirror-less body can be produced for around $1500 with no problems, especially if more than one camera model shares the same variant of the sensor.
And people hoped the D600 would be launched at $1500. Guess what...
By the way, the Sony RX1, which is a FF MILC except for the ability to change lenses, it's $2800, i.e. more expensive than a D600 + 35mm f/2 lens.
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
- two cameras of the new Pentax FF mirror-less system,
- one or two models of the FF-DSLRs for current K-mount,
- a camera or two in Ricoh's own range (FF versions of the film GR cameras).
- Ricoh's camera for M-mount digital solution (currently supporting APS-C sensors only)
- etc.

that share same R&D money and time, same people, same production plants, same components, processors, etc. That's how real savings are made. As you can see, Pentax-Ricoh together can make quite a lot of interesting products using same resources and lower the overall production cost.
I'm sorry, but you're missing something: they would have to sell all those, in high enough quantities & prices, in order to recover R&D and other associated expenses, and - preferably - make a profit. Your "real savings" would require heavy investments, to increase their overall capacity (R&D, production, distribution, marketing...).
I think it's completely unrealistic to ask them to put up to 7 FF models on the market and expect them to survive after such a stunt.
IMHO, their best chance is to make one FF K-mount camera, for the beginning. One. The economy of scale for sensors would be taken care of by Nikon, and maybe Sony. The potential customer base can be found in the K-mount users. The investment will be lower, compared with launching a new system.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I agree that official talk was nothing more than occasional chat about "what's all possible". So it holds no real-world value but to confirm they are "busy thinking and working on stuff". And I suspect nothing else from them until products are actually introduced.
I believe everything Kitazawa-san said makes sense, and I agree with his view on DSLRs and MILCs.

12-23-2012, 03:17 AM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I think that a mirror-less body can be produced for around $1500 with no problems, especially if more than one camera model shares the same variant of the sensor. Say, if an FF sensor Sony makes costs $700 a piece, producing just one camera model with it would make it very expensive even for scale ordering. That is the problem Leica faces, therefore they need a different (indie) sensor supplier. But if the sensor is to be used in 7 different cameras all available at the same time and coming from the same team, then production becomes something quite different. Even if the cost for a sensor is same, the overall economy changes. For example, lets say the new Sony's 24MP sensor is in

- two cameras of the new Pentax FF mirror-less system,
- one or two models of the FF-DSLRs for current K-mount,
- a camera or two in Ricoh's own range (FF versions of the film GR cameras).
- Ricoh's camera for M-mount digital solution (currently supporting APS-C sensors only)
- etc.

that share same R&D money and time, same people, same production plants, same components, processors, etc. That's how real savings are made. As you can see, Pentax-Ricoh together can make quite a lot of interesting products using same resources and lower the overall production cost.
Well I think one off the main issues when it comes to costs is the firmware and the expensive boys making them. Pentax is smart in that way in having now a 14/bit set used for K-5 and now its successor K-5 II(s). There is the 12-bit set for K-01 and K-30. This same thing can be done for a FF offering.

QuoteOriginally posted by [| o ] Quote
Hi all,

I just came here from the "other" Pentax forum, and joined.
Thanks for joining!
12-23-2012, 03:25 AM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
EVIL 645 with a CMOS Sony sensor and I am sold.... As long as it comes in under $5,000....... and is a true 645 size and not the current 645 crop. I would only need 3 lenses, so it would still be a small kit.
Might as well throw in a Unicorn as well.
12-23-2012, 04:09 AM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
EVIL 645 with a CMOS Sony sensor and I am sold.... As long as it comes in under $5,000....... and is a true 645 size and not the current 645 crop. I would only need 3 lenses, so it would still be a small kit.
You have such modest expectations.

12-23-2012, 04:42 AM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by goldenarrow Quote
So, does this mean that the K-01 is dead? I am having a ball using such a neat "lightweight" MILC. Image quality is great and it is easy to handle and carry. I think the interview with the USA VP indicated that the mirrorless K-mount cameras are now a dead end. Too bad if true.

This is also what I understood. They may produce a successor but this will be more like a by-product. Why not if it is low cost - low risk. But no real investment there.
12-23-2012, 04:46 AM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
This is also what I understood. They may produce a successor but this will be more like a by-product. Why not if it is low cost - low risk. But no real investment there.
Here in Sweden the K-01, more often than not, costs more than the K-30 and even at times the K-5 so I don't really see the low price people talk about.
12-23-2012, 04:52 AM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by VisualDarkness Quote
Here in Sweden the K-01, more often than not, costs more than the K-30 and even at times the K-5 so I don't really see the low price people talk about.
I may be wrong but I don't think the price went down (or at least not much) either in Belgium.
Seems the US really did a fire sale.
12-23-2012, 05:32 AM   #203
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It will be difficult to drop the K-mount but we will have that discussion and make the decision carefully.

12-23-2012, 06:34 AM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by goldenarrow Quote
So, does this mean that the K-01 is dead? I am having a ball using such a neat "lightweight" MILC. Image quality is great and it is easy to handle and carry. I think the interview with the USA VP indicated that the mirrorless K-mount cameras are now a dead end. Too bad if true.

Well your K-01 isn't dead, you can still use it! In the future I expect small K-mount cameras, perhaps not mirrorless but with mirrorless-like live-view capabilities, or non K-mount mirrorless cameras with an adapter, would be available.
12-23-2012, 07:40 AM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
I have been waiting for Ricoh monochrome.
+1 to this. This will definitely be interesting. The B/W images from the Ricoh GXR are very good but something closer to what Leica's new crop of cameras would be welcome.
12-23-2012, 08:51 AM   #206
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MILC adapters

QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
Well your K-01 isn't dead, you can still use it! In the future I expect small K-mount cameras, perhaps not mirrorless but with mirrorless-like live-view capabilities, or non K-mount mirrorless cameras with an adapter, would be available.
Something is always lost with expensive adapters, like AF or aperture or control or something. I hate adapters. For me, I need to stick with K-mount because I am completely unwilling to go to another mount - if forced to, I will go to NIKON or 4/3's SYSTEM. I view my lenses as more fundamental than my cameras and also see it as a complete photo system that gives me capabilities that only pros in the past had access to. But, you might be right, since Pentax is a smaller player, they may be forced to cut costs and drop mirrorless K-mount. I had better start saving pennies for the next DSLR.

12-23-2012, 09:59 AM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Might as well throw in a Unicorn as well.
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
You have such modest expectations.
If I am going to dream, I will dream big.....
12-23-2012, 10:08 AM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
+1 to this. This will definitely be interesting. The B/W images from the Ricoh GXR are very good but something closer to what Leica's new crop of cameras would be welcome.
They have expressed interest in this in the past.
12-23-2012, 10:11 AM   #209
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How about a special edition K-5 IIs monochrome? That should attract some attention, unlike simply coloring it silver...
12-23-2012, 11:40 AM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
How about a special edition K-5 IIs monochrome? That should attract some attention, unlike simply coloring it silver...
Don't know about other mono shooters, but I wouldn't be personally interested in it. K-5 has too many features that I would never use. I don't need many fps, fancy complicated AF system, creative filters, and so on. What I would want is a module, or a simple rangefinder like camera with Leica mono like sensor with high ISO capability that is quite compact . . . . I also don't care if it is APS-C. In fact, I probably prefer APS-C, so that the cost of it would not be sky high. If Ricoh came out with mono module that GXR, I will get into the system in a heart beat, even if they never came out with K mount module for my FA ltds (I don't think they ever will). I will along with it get the M module for my m mount lenses. That would be a dream come true.

I do think that K-5's sensor would be plenty good enough to use, as mono pics that I get out of K-01 via Silver Efex Pro by NIK is quite satisfactory.

2013 will be an interesting year for Ricoh in my opinion, more so than Pentax, at least for me anyway.
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