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01-10-2013, 01:45 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by hangman43 Quote
All I have seen from you is your personal interest and your personal opinion of where the camera industry is going and your personal opinion of what Pentax should be focusing on all we hear from you is about your interest and you balk at everyone else you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong. You have your Olympus it seems to fit your needs just be happy and quit trying to convince us that it is your way or Pentax will die a horrible death.
Well, I understand that you joined the discussion late, but the data that I have used in my arguments is public - even if you don't care to go through my past posts, a simple search for market share reports would give you an idea of what the trends are. Ash and Kunzite have been disagreeing with me as far as I remember, so I can hardly contain my shock at their agreement over the last couple of posts.

01-10-2013, 02:23 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
FWIW, battery life on MILCs is not bad at all. I don't feel any difference from SLR battery life. On vacation, I shot from 10am to 2am without changing the battery - I get at least a day and a half on a charge.
Uhh... I usually charge my K-5 once a month or so - I can't really tell how often it is, it lasts so long (except when using video or LV) and I always have a spare battery in the bag, so it's never a problem anyway. My daughter's NEX-7, on the other hand, has to be charged much more frequently. It's not really bad, but it can't really be compared to the K-5 in this respect (I think she needs a spare battery, but they're crazy expensive and there seems to be a lot of problems with the third party ones).
01-10-2013, 04:22 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Well, I understand that you joined the discussion late, but the data that I have used in my arguments is public - even if you don't care to go through my past posts, a simple search for market share reports would give you an idea of what the trends are. Ash and Kunzite have been disagreeing with me as far as I remember, so I can hardly contain my shock at their agreement over the last couple of posts.
Laurentiu, not just me and Ash - there is an entire K-mount current user base disagreeing with you

I'm not sure what data are you talking about, you mentioned market shares but in a different context (raw data are much better). IMO you didn't had any data supported argument for many bold claim (e.g. that certain technologies are pointless, a FF DSLR being a costly mistake and so on); mostly it's about very subjective stuff, and strong preferences for certain technologies.
Some of the data you're showing is either wrong, or misapplied; for example Ricoh buying Pentax on July (the sale was completed on 1st October 2011), "extending" the time Pentax Ricoh had for new projects.

I have no issue with your strong preference towards MILCs, but this is the wrong company. And probably that's the biggest difference between us

Last edited by Kunzite; 01-10-2013 at 05:26 AM.
01-10-2013, 05:42 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Well, I understand that you joined the discussion late, but the data that I have used in my arguments is public - even if you don't care to go through my past posts, a simple search for market share reports would give you an idea of what the trends are. Ash and Kunzite have been disagreeing with me as far as I remember, so I can hardly contain my shock at their agreement over the last couple of posts.
I might have commented late in the conversation but not before reading all the post and all you post in other threads that you are spouting the same rhetoric in I still stand by my statement that all I have seen from you is personal opinion and personal preference.

01-10-2013, 05:47 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It is common sense that some people would rather see the subject they want to photograph through optical instruments, and not at some heavily processed image, pale approximation of what the result could be without any kind of post-processing, displayed on some lousy, non-calibrated miniature display. YMMV.
I'll stop here, but please, don't say that optical viewfinders are pointless as if our opinion doesn't matter.
Nobody, except you, said anything about lousy viewfinders. We don't want lousy EVF's, just as much as we don't want lousy OVF's.

With the OVF, there is a lot of guessing involved. There is three different images:
- The world we see with our eyes.
- The dark tunnel we see through the OVF is vastly different from that.
- Then the actual output is different from both again.

What else can be expected from a merge of digital and analog?

The EVF will have the ability to show the output, exactly as the RAW file will be, in the VF.

This is actually right in Pentax "dare to be different" street. To populate that niche they want. Like by introducing the LX-D, worlds first interchangable electronic viewfinder camera. An IEVIL.

Not to mention the endless possibilities of such an EVF. For example, with my phone, I can just sweep over a landscape, whilst I see a panorama being stitched, on screen, in real time. My phone does it better then my camera in combination with any PP-stitching-software, because my phone knows exactly in what direction I'm moving the lens. And when it wants me to go over an area again, it paints it red. My expensive DSLR cannot do that. My phone is actually better suited for taking a panorama picture, then my dedicated camera. Is it just me, or is that terribly wrong? It should be 20x better at it.

Last edited by Clavius; 01-10-2013 at 06:00 AM.
01-10-2013, 05:47 AM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Uhh... I usually charge my K-5 once a month or so - I can't really tell how often it is, it lasts so long (except when using video or LV) and I always have a spare battery in the bag, so it's never a problem anyway. My daughter's NEX-7, on the other hand, has to be charged much more frequently. It's not really bad, but it can't really be compared to the K-5 in this respect (I think she needs a spare battery, but they're crazy expensive and there seems to be a lot of problems with the third party ones).
Agree the NEX batteries are not as good as the K5 ones, but they're much smaller - but I bought 2x generic ones from ebay and they've worked out great. Perhaps for the low outlay, it might be worth your daughter giving it a go.
01-10-2013, 05:50 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
The EVF will have the ability to show the output, exactly as the RAW file will be, in the VF.
Except that EVFs aren't that good yet.

And except that the RAW file is really the negative, so it will rather be (in the not too distant future) "the way your processed RAW file should look - according to Pentax - with your current exposure, WB, image tone etc. settings.
01-10-2013, 05:54 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Except that EVFs aren't that good yet.
Indeed, he is talking about future development.

EVF/LCDs do have the advantage of showing 'live' exposure, which is handy for us more blundersome photographers.

One thing I don't like is the EVF/LCDs I have used tend to show live depth of field too, which is worse for pinpoint focusing (I get round this by opening up the lens to focus like a preset).

01-10-2013, 06:09 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
This is actually right in Pentax "dare to be different" street
Producing an EVF-MILC doesn't seem to be different IMO. IEVIL is barely any more innovative than just EVIL/MILC to me.
The argument that OVFs require some sort of guesswork trivialises the skill many good photographers have in being able to see with their 'mind's eye', creating the end result in their head before the photograph is even framed.
The advantages of an EVF in being able to display WYSIWYG may be an advantage to some, and give no creative advantage to others.
With each rebuttal put forth for the case of overtaking OVFs by EVFs, there is less and less meaningful argumentation.
Say that EVFs are great and all, that's fine. Deploring OVFs in light of EVF praise is unbecoming.
01-10-2013, 06:29 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
Indeed, he is talking about future development.
That's fine, but then we will have to wait 5-10 years until we can start tripping on LX-D
01-10-2013, 06:29 AM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Except that EVFs aren't that good yet.
Then why is my mirrorless phone doing a better job at creating immersive panorama photo's then my camera? If it only had the sensor and the optics of my K5! That lousy/crappy electronic display is enabling on-the-fly stitching, and that super OVF of my DSLR is holding it back. So, I don't care how crappy anyone finds current electronic displays, they're obviously less crappy then optical ones.

By the time the conservative users deem the EVF good enough, phones will do everything better then cameras.

This is all so similar to the film users that were disgusted with digital at first.
01-10-2013, 06:33 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Then why is my mirrorless phone doing a better job at creating immersive panorama photo's then my camera?
Why are you asking that? A panorama mode can be added to a K-5 like DSLR in LV and give you exactly what you have on your phone with better optics.
01-10-2013, 06:35 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Why are you asking that? A panorama mode can be added to a K-5 like DSLR in LV and give you exactly what you have on your phone with better optics.
(and in fact, I use LV on my K-5 quite often, whenever I need to hold my camera higher or lower than my eye)
01-10-2013, 06:36 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
The argument that OVFs require some sort of guesswork trivialises the skill many good photographers have in being able to see with their 'mind's eye', creating the end result in their head before the photograph is even framed.
True... And any good skilled accountant will calculate everything manually, without calculator or excel! Or do those tools just help focus the accountant on the more important tasks?
01-10-2013, 06:52 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Nobody, except you, said anything about lousy viewfinders. We don't want lousy EVF's, just as much as we don't want lousy OVF's.

With the OVF, there is a lot of guessing involved. There is three different images:
- The world we see with our eyes.
- The dark tunnel we see through the OVF is vastly different from that.
- Then the actual output is different from both again.

What else can be expected from a merge of digital and analog?

The EVF will have the ability to show the output, exactly as the RAW file will be, in the VF.

This is actually right in Pentax "dare to be different" street. To populate that niche they want. Like by introducing the LX-D, worlds first interchangable electronic viewfinder camera. An IEVIL.

Not to mention the endless possibilities of such an EVF. For example, with my phone, I can just sweep over a landscape, whilst I see a panorama being stitched, on screen, in real time. My phone does it better then my camera in combination with any PP-stitching-software, because my phone knows exactly in what direction I'm moving the lens. And when it wants me to go over an area again, it paints it red. My expensive DSLR cannot do that. My phone is actually better suited for taking a panorama picture, then my dedicated camera. Is it just me, or is that terribly wrong? It should be 20x better at it.
You know what is funny? Right after you said I'm talking about lousy EVFs and how nobody wants lousy OVFs, you start talking about lousy OVFs (dark tunnel?).

The RAW file cannot be seen (unless dumped in hexa), it needs to be processed and then, the result would be displayed, preferably on a high resolution wide gamut calibrated display (which the EVFs aren't).
Expanding on what gazonk said, you'd only see an approximation of the jpeg file processed which what happened to be the current settings.

There are several cameras with interchangeable electronic viewfinders on the market.

QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
Indeed, he is talking about future development.
I'd rather call it "science fiction", since they are currently far behind this "future development"

QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Producing an EVF-MILC doesn't seem to be different IMO. IEVIL is barely any more innovative than just EVIL/MILC to me.
The argument that OVFs require some sort of guesswork trivialises the skill many good photographers have in being able to see with their 'mind's eye', creating the end result in their head before the photograph is even framed.
The advantages of an EVF in being able to display WYSIWYG may be an advantage to some, and give no creative advantage to others.
With each rebuttal put forth for the case of overtaking OVFs by EVFs, there is less and less meaningful argumentation.
Say that EVFs are great and all, that's fine. Deploring OVFs in light of EVF praise is unbecoming.
Unsurprisingly, I agree. With 2 comments:
- I think it's better for the photographer to decide how the result should be, instead of following the camera's indication
- WYSIWYG is a lie.
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