PopPhoto admit using K10D AF speed data in K20D review

Peter Fang · 02-23-2008, 04:24 AM

As it has been discussed here and elsewhere, the March 2008 issue of PopPhoto has a K20D review with AF speed data being identical to that of their K10D lab test back in Jan. 2007. It was suspected that they did not bother to test the K10D's AF performance in full detail but rather copied the K10D numbers and pasted over to the K20D review. There was also one apparent error during the process: The time for -1 EV (of the K10D) was plotted as 0 EV on K20D chart.

I posted a question to the editors on PopPhoto's forum with no response from them so far but I just saw that they responded to another thread here:

Uh-oh, shennanigans in the Pentax K20D review - Respond to Popular Photography & Imaging - PopPhoto

Online Technology Editor Jack said the following in a reply to the thread:

--- quote begins ---

FYI:

Executive Technology Editor Michael J. McNamara explains: Pentax openly admits that the K20D AF system is identical to the AF system on K10D with no claims for speed or sensitivity improvements. As noted in our several stories on the K20D, there are multiple design and performance elements that are identical between the two cameras since the K20D is actually a significant upgrade to the K10D but not a totally new camera design. Our preliminary lab findings supported the similarity in AF systems, and therefore we decided to incorporate the AF results from the K10D to minimize confusion. Had there been slight variations between the two camera models (as there would be), we would have received even more complaints after claiming both AF systems were the same. However, when the test data was incorporated into the K20D Test Results graphic in print and online, it is was accidentally transposed by one place. We have since updated the chart to correct this and believe the chart to be an accurate appraisal of how the K20D AF system performs compared to other DSLRs tested in the same manner.
--- quote ends ---

"we decided to incorporate the AF results from the K10D to minimize confusion"???

I have to say I am confused by this decision. Back in the days when they tested the K10D it was running firmware 1.00 presumably and it had no support for SDM lenses because SDM lenses were not out yet. Even if Pentax said the AF hardware is identical in the K20D, there have been revisions in firmware and most notably SDM support was added since 1.30. Since they tested the DA* 16-50 for the same March 2008 issue, at least we can expect them to re-test the AF speed using an SDM lens on the K20D and publish the full numbers. Granted, low light AF performance could still be bad and SDM may not improve speed much, but I don't think they would come out 100% identical to the K10D using body-driven AF.

I don't know about the rest of you but this is the kind of review philosophy and policy that I personally cannot agree with.

Best,

Peter

mattdm · 02-23-2008, 04:58 AM

Yeah, I gotta say, that explanation is a bit weak. They could have put in a little note saying "slight difference from K10D results is due to sample variation". As it is, they definitely should have said "since AF system is unchanged, we're printing the data from the K10D" in order to make the review honest.

creampuff · 02-23-2008, 05:03 AM

Lame backtracking by PopPhoto. Doesn't add to their credibility.

Kunzite · 02-23-2008, 05:08 AM

Originally posted by mattdm

Yeah, I gotta say, that explanation is a bit weak. They could have put in a little note saying "slight difference from K10D results is due to sample variation". As it is, they definitely should have said "since AF system is unchanged, we're printing the data from the K10D" in order to make the review honest.

Has anyone noticed the AF working range is different from K10D? i.e. EV 0-19 for K10D and EV -1-20 for K20D. It looks like Pentax tweaked their AF for a (slightly) better low light performance.

Peter Fang · 02-23-2008, 05:19 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Has anyone noticed the AF working range is different from K10D? i.e. EV 0-19 for K10D and EV -1-20 for K20D. It looks like Pentax tweaked their AF for a (slightly) better low light performance.

If that's indeed the case, it makes PopPhoto's explanation look even worse as they said "Pentax openly admits that the K20D AF system is identical to the AF system on K10D with no claims for speed or sensitivity improvements"

Peter

Kunzite · 02-23-2008, 05:32 AM

Ahh... sorry, folks. I was comparing the data from dpreview (in case of the K10D) with the data from the K20D manual.
The K10D manual (I've just checked) has the same EV -1-18 range, so the dpreview is wrong (copy/paste?

).

Tom M · 02-23-2008, 06:26 AM

I wrote the editor as well.. It's a BS excuse and goes to show how irresponsible their reviews are. In all honesty, they should ALWAYS check ALL focus modes - and that should include trap-focus etc. Not to mention, just who do they think they're kidding? The K20D kit lens is the DA 18-55MK II, and the K10D kit lens was the DA 18-55 - AF is highly effected by the lens used for testing.

**barondla** · 02-23-2008, 07:00 AM

If they are going to take every companies word for the specs of their product why do ANY testing? Every camera company puts out a page or more of specs with their dslr. Truthfully, they aren't able to do a proper review anymore. Every review has major mistakes. They knocked the K20D because there aren't big SD cards. There are 16g from everyone. A couple have announced 32g (these may be available now). Largest for CF is 32g with 48g announced (maybe shipping).
They just need filler to put between their ads. Figure the mag is headed for the great beyond in a few years. They don't do anything very well. They got caught being lazy or dishonest. Should have also tested SDM focusing. One of the reasons I send "subscription" money to this forum instead op Pop Photo. The user tests here are worth so much more.
thanks
barondla

ogl · 02-23-2008, 07:08 AM

How can we trust to other figures from this co-called REVIEW?
It's MUCH worse that Phil made at dpreview.

ogl · 02-23-2008, 07:19 AM

Why don't they make test with K20D with SDM lenses? Pentax's kit has no SDM.
Canon and Nikon have. I understand that SDM is not miracle and not helper in low light, but it's more honestly.
It will be more interested to compare Pentax AF speed with Canon/Nikon/Olympus.
'Cos I don't care AF of 18-55 with 14.6 Mp camera.
K20D are shiped in body version to the shops. No kit version.

RiceHigh · 02-23-2008, 08:01 AM

Peter, thanks for making the query and now we've got their answers. Btw, I think I might the first person to point out the shift in 1EV problem in my blog for their chart which they have now admitted, too :-)

Well, as for the case, I'm totally disappointed with PopPhoto, anyway.

Originally posted by Peter Fang

As it has been discussed here and elsewhere, the March 2008 issue of PopPhoto has a K20D review with AF speed data being identical to that of their K10D lab test back in Jan. 2007. It was suspected that they did not bother to test the K10D's AF performance in full detail but rather copied the K10D numbers and pasted over to the K20D review. There was also one apparent error during the process: The time for -1 EV (of the K10D) was plotted as 0 EV on K20D chart.

I posted a question to the editors on PopPhoto's forum with no response from them so far but I just saw that they responded to another thread here:

Uh-oh, shennanigans in the Pentax K20D review - Respond to Popular Photography & Imaging - PopPhoto

Online Technology Editor Jack said the following in a reply to the thread:

--- quote begins ---

FYI:

Executive Technology Editor Michael J. McNamara explains: Pentax openly admits that the K20D AF system is identical to the AF system on K10D with no claims for speed or sensitivity improvements. As noted in our several stories on the K20D, there are multiple design and performance elements that are identical between the two cameras since the K20D is actually a significant upgrade to the K10D but not a totally new camera design. Our preliminary lab findings supported the similarity in AF systems, and therefore we decided to incorporate the AF results from the K10D to minimize confusion. Had there been slight variations between the two camera models (as there would be), we would have received even more complaints after claiming both AF systems were the same. However, when the test data was incorporated into the K20D Test Results graphic in print and online, it is was accidentally transposed by one place. We have since updated the chart to correct this and believe the chart to be an accurate appraisal of how the K20D AF system performs compared to other DSLRs tested in the same manner.
--- quote ends ---

"we decided to incorporate the AF results from the K10D to minimize confusion"???

I have to say I am confused by this decision. Back in the days when they tested the K10D it was running firmware 1.00 presumably and it had no support for SDM lenses because SDM lenses were not out yet. Even if Pentax said the AF hardware is identical in the K20D, there have been revisions in firmware and most notably SDM support was added since 1.30. Since they tested the DA* 16-50 for the same March 2008 issue, at least we can expect them to re-test the AF speed using an SDM lens on the K20D and publish the full numbers. Granted, low light AF performance could still be bad and SDM may not improve speed much, but I don't think they would come out 100% identical to the K10D using body-driven AF.

I don't know about the rest of you but this is the kind of review philosophy and policy that I personally cannot agree with.

Best,

Peter

JMS · 02-23-2008, 10:09 AM

I just feel obligated to point out that PopPhoto uses 50mm lenses in all their AF speed tests.

*isteve · 02-23-2008, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by JMS

I just feel obligated to point out that PopPhoto uses 50mm lenses in all their AF speed tests.

Hardly fair then, given that the Canon versions are USM lenses. The 50 1.4 is not the fastest focusing lens in the Pentax camp either - its contrast wide open is not that great and it affects AF performance. Also many of the FA lenses are slow to focus.

You cannot say anything about AF performance unless you compare with a cross section of popular lenses on a variety of targets under controlled conditions and publish the results. I have never really seen such a test performed by any magazine.

As for pop photo, they have proved to me that their reviews are garbage and I would not take any more notice in them. I would say the same about amateur photographer in the UK too, these days anyway. They are not the magazine they once were.

Kaimarx · 02-23-2008, 04:12 PM

Shucks, thats disappointing to hear such a lax attitude from pop photo towards their testing procedures. I wouldnt expect a huge difference in the AF, but a difference if its present is still a difference, cutting and pasting results from a previous model is just plain lazy and unprofessional.

*isteve · 02-23-2008, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Kaimarx

Shucks, thats disappointing to hear such a lax attitude from pop photo towards their testing procedures. I wouldnt expect a huge difference in the AF, but a difference if its present is still a difference, cutting and pasting results from a previous model is just plain lazy and unprofessional.

Pop photo are talking rubbish anyway. There is more to an AF system than the AF sensors. The K10D later versions and K20D support SDM lenses, so this in itself is a major change, plus the K20D support fine tuning of lenses (another upgrade to the AF system).

I am also fairly sure that the SDM algorithm has been enhanced and is much more precise (less hunting) than on the K10D. This is just a matter of tweaking the settings in the AF computer but it could make a big difference and not to test this out is sheer laziness. To cut and paste number from a different camera is not just laziness however, its downright lying.

02-23-2008, 04:24 AM	#1
Peter Fang Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Beijing, China Posts: 58	PopPhoto admit using K10D AF speed data in K20D review As it has been discussed here and elsewhere, the March 2008 issue of PopPhoto has a K20D review with AF speed data being identical to that of their K10D lab test back in Jan. 2007. It was suspected that they did not bother to test the K10D's AF performance in full detail but rather copied the K10D numbers and pasted over to the K20D review. There was also one apparent error during the process: The time for -1 EV (of the K10D) was plotted as 0 EV on K20D chart. I posted a question to the editors on PopPhoto's forum with no response from them so far but I just saw that they responded to another thread here: Uh-oh, shennanigans in the Pentax K20D review - Respond to Popular Photography & Imaging - PopPhoto Online Technology Editor Jack said the following in a reply to the thread: --- quote begins --- FYI: Executive Technology Editor Michael J. McNamara explains: Pentax openly admits that the K20D AF system is identical to the AF system on K10D with no claims for speed or sensitivity improvements. As noted in our several stories on the K20D, there are multiple design and performance elements that are identical between the two cameras since the K20D is actually a significant upgrade to the K10D but not a totally new camera design. Our preliminary lab findings supported the similarity in AF systems, and therefore we decided to incorporate the AF results from the K10D to minimize confusion. Had there been slight variations between the two camera models (as there would be), we would have received even more complaints after claiming both AF systems were the same. However, when the test data was incorporated into the K20D Test Results graphic in print and online, it is was accidentally transposed by one place. We have since updated the chart to correct this and believe the chart to be an accurate appraisal of how the K20D AF system performs compared to other DSLRs tested in the same manner. --- quote ends --- "we decided to incorporate the AF results from the K10D to minimize confusion"??? I have to say I am confused by this decision. Back in the days when they tested the K10D it was running firmware 1.00 presumably and it had no support for SDM lenses because SDM lenses were not out yet. Even if Pentax said the AF hardware is identical in the K20D, there have been revisions in firmware and most notably SDM support was added since 1.30. Since they tested the DA* 16-50 for the same March 2008 issue, at least we can expect them to re-test the AF speed using an SDM lens on the K20D and publish the full numbers. Granted, low light AF performance could still be bad and SDM may not improve speed much, but I don't think they would come out 100% identical to the K10D using body-driven AF. I don't know about the rest of you but this is the kind of review philosophy and policy that I personally cannot agree with. Best, Peter

02-23-2008, 08:01 AM	#11
RiceHigh Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,934	Well Done, Peter! Peter, thanks for making the query and now we've got their answers. Btw, I think I might the first person to point out the shift in 1EV problem in my blog for their chart which they have now admitted, too :-) Well, as for the case, I'm totally disappointed with PopPhoto, anyway. Originally posted by Peter Fang As it has been discussed here and elsewhere, the March 2008 issue of PopPhoto has a K20D review with AF speed data being identical to that of their K10D lab test back in Jan. 2007. It was suspected that they did not bother to test the K10D's AF performance in full detail but rather copied the K10D numbers and pasted over to the K20D review. There was also one apparent error during the process: The time for -1 EV (of the K10D) was plotted as 0 EV on K20D chart. I posted a question to the editors on PopPhoto's forum with no response from them so far but I just saw that they responded to another thread here: Uh-oh, shennanigans in the Pentax K20D review - Respond to Popular Photography & Imaging - PopPhoto Online Technology Editor Jack said the following in a reply to the thread: --- quote begins --- FYI: Executive Technology Editor Michael J. McNamara explains: Pentax openly admits that the K20D AF system is identical to the AF system on K10D with no claims for speed or sensitivity improvements. As noted in our several stories on the K20D, there are multiple design and performance elements that are identical between the two cameras since the K20D is actually a significant upgrade to the K10D but not a totally new camera design. Our preliminary lab findings supported the similarity in AF systems, and therefore we decided to incorporate the AF results from the K10D to minimize confusion. Had there been slight variations between the two camera models (as there would be), we would have received even more complaints after claiming both AF systems were the same. However, when the test data was incorporated into the K20D Test Results graphic in print and online, it is was accidentally transposed by one place. We have since updated the chart to correct this and believe the chart to be an accurate appraisal of how the K20D AF system performs compared to other DSLRs tested in the same manner. --- quote ends --- "we decided to incorporate the AF results from the K10D to minimize confusion"??? I have to say I am confused by this decision. Back in the days when they tested the K10D it was running firmware 1.00 presumably and it had no support for SDM lenses because SDM lenses were not out yet. Even if Pentax said the AF hardware is identical in the K20D, there have been revisions in firmware and most notably SDM support was added since 1.30. Since they tested the DA* 16-50 for the same March 2008 issue, at least we can expect them to re-test the AF speed using an SDM lens on the K20D and publish the full numbers. Granted, low light AF performance could still be bad and SDM may not improve speed much, but I don't think they would come out 100% identical to the K10D using body-driven AF. I don't know about the rest of you but this is the kind of review philosophy and policy that I personally cannot agree with. Best, Peter

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02-23-2008, 04:58 AM	#2
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Yeah, I gotta say, that explanation is a bit weak. They could have put in a little note saying "slight difference from K10D results is due to sample variation". As it is, they definitely should have said "since AF system is unchanged, we're printing the data from the K10D" in order to make the review honest.

02-23-2008, 05:03 AM	#3
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	Lame backtracking by PopPhoto. Doesn't add to their credibility.

02-23-2008, 05:08 AM	#4
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by mattdm Yeah, I gotta say, that explanation is a bit weak. They could have put in a little note saying "slight difference from K10D results is due to sample variation". As it is, they definitely should have said "since AF system is unchanged, we're printing the data from the K10D" in order to make the review honest. Has anyone noticed the AF working range is different from K10D? i.e. EV 0-19 for K10D and EV -1-20 for K20D. It looks like Pentax tweaked their AF for a (slightly) better low light performance.

02-23-2008, 05:19 AM	#5
Peter Fang Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Beijing, China Posts: 58 Original Poster	Originally posted by Kunzite Has anyone noticed the AF working range is different from K10D? i.e. EV 0-19 for K10D and EV -1-20 for K20D. It looks like Pentax tweaked their AF for a (slightly) better low light performance. If that's indeed the case, it makes PopPhoto's explanation look even worse as they said "Pentax openly admits that the K20D AF system is identical to the AF system on K10D with no claims for speed or sensitivity improvements" Peter

02-23-2008, 05:32 AM	#6
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Ahh... sorry, folks. I was comparing the data from dpreview (in case of the K10D) with the data from the K20D manual. The K10D manual (I've just checked) has the same EV -1-18 range, so the dpreview is wrong (copy/paste? ).

02-23-2008, 06:26 AM	#7
Tom M Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Lincoln Park, NJ Photos: Gallery Posts: 780	I wrote the editor as well.. It's a BS excuse and goes to show how irresponsible their reviews are. In all honesty, they should ALWAYS check ALL focus modes - and that should include trap-focus etc. Not to mention, just who do they think they're kidding? The K20D kit lens is the DA 18-55MK II, and the K10D kit lens was the DA 18-55 - AF is highly effected by the lens used for testing.

02-23-2008, 07:00 AM	#8
barondla Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: midwest, United States Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,715	If they are going to take every companies word for the specs of their product why do ANY testing? Every camera company puts out a page or more of specs with their dslr. Truthfully, they aren't able to do a proper review anymore. Every review has major mistakes. They knocked the K20D because there aren't big SD cards. There are 16g from everyone. A couple have announced 32g (these may be available now). Largest for CF is 32g with 48g announced (maybe shipping). They just need filler to put between their ads. Figure the mag is headed for the great beyond in a few years. They don't do anything very well. They got caught being lazy or dishonest. Should have also tested SDM focusing. One of the reasons I send "subscription" money to this forum instead op Pop Photo. The user tests here are worth so much more. thanks barondla

02-23-2008, 07:08 AM	#9
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	How can we trust to other figures from this co-called REVIEW? It's MUCH worse that Phil made at dpreview.

02-23-2008, 07:19 AM	#10
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Why don't they make test with K20D with SDM lenses? Pentax's kit has no SDM. Canon and Nikon have. I understand that SDM is not miracle and not helper in low light, but it's more honestly. It will be more interested to compare Pentax AF speed with Canon/Nikon/Olympus. 'Cos I don't care AF of 18-55 with 14.6 Mp camera. K20D are shiped in body version to the shops. No kit version.

02-23-2008, 10:09 AM	#12
JMS Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 273	I just feel obligated to point out that PopPhoto uses 50mm lenses in all their AF speed tests.

02-23-2008, 03:22 PM	#13
*isteve Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 1,187	Originally posted by JMS I just feel obligated to point out that PopPhoto uses 50mm lenses in all their AF speed tests. Hardly fair then, given that the Canon versions are USM lenses. The 50 1.4 is not the fastest focusing lens in the Pentax camp either - its contrast wide open is not that great and it affects AF performance. Also many of the FA lenses are slow to focus. You cannot say anything about AF performance unless you compare with a cross section of popular lenses on a variety of targets under controlled conditions and publish the results. I have never really seen such a test performed by any magazine. As for pop photo, they have proved to me that their reviews are garbage and I would not take any more notice in them. I would say the same about amateur photographer in the UK too, these days anyway. They are not the magazine they once were.

02-23-2008, 04:12 PM	#14
Kaimarx Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Auckland Photos: Gallery Posts: 452	Shucks, thats disappointing to hear such a lax attitude from pop photo towards their testing procedures. I wouldnt expect a huge difference in the AF, but a difference if its present is still a difference, cutting and pasting results from a previous model is just plain lazy and unprofessional.

02-23-2008, 05:19 PM	#15
*isteve Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 1,187	Originally posted by Kaimarx Shucks, thats disappointing to hear such a lax attitude from pop photo towards their testing procedures. I wouldnt expect a huge difference in the AF, but a difference if its present is still a difference, cutting and pasting results from a previous model is just plain lazy and unprofessional. Pop photo are talking rubbish anyway. There is more to an AF system than the AF sensors. The K10D later versions and K20D support SDM lenses, so this in itself is a major change, plus the K20D support fine tuning of lenses (another upgrade to the AF system). I am also fairly sure that the SDM algorithm has been enhanced and is much more precise (less hunting) than on the K10D. This is just a matter of tweaking the settings in the AF computer but it could make a big difference and not to test this out is sheer laziness. To cut and paste number from a different camera is not just laziness however, its downright lying.