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03-10-2013, 03:01 AM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I wonder if the lack of response to this lens will be interpreted as a disinterest in the Pentax community towards high-end gear in general.
I think the problem of this lens is that Canon and Nikon have both raised the price of their long tele lenses, so Pentax can put this at 7000 $/€ and still be considered "cheap". But it's not cheap for the pocket of most Pentaxians interested in that lens. If I had that money, I would buy the used F*250-600/5,6...

Anyway, if they have produced just 400 of them, I guess it will be easy for them to sell everyone. Le't's hope in the used market, in a couple of years.

03-10-2013, 03:31 AM   #272
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eurostar, it's initial production volume: 400 units/month; we're not told for how long they will continue. I doubt they'll make only 400.

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Well, yes, other than the fact that it's called out as an APS-C (which I don't really trust either). But yup, 'that's all'.

When that 1.3 or whatever number came out I looked at other lenses, because I thought 1.3 wasn't that bad... and the worst I found was ~0.6 or 0.7. Don't know where you're getting a Canon 600mm showing 1.3 EV of vignetting... but even still, I'm sure the Canon's doing super-awesome at f/5.6.

Having to stop down to f/8 on a $7k lens sounds a bit ridiculous to me, but everything about this lens seems ridiculous to me.
From here:
Nikon 600mm f/4G ED AF-S VR Nikkor Lens Vignetting Test Results
The point being that even a $13000 lens can show vignetting wide open. Well, according to you the Canon is not a FF lens...
03-10-2013, 03:49 AM   #273
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
From here:
Nikon 600mm f/4G ED AF-S VR Nikkor Lens Vignetting Test Results
The point being that even a $13000 lens can show vignetting wide open. Well, according to you the Canon is not a FF lens...
I looked at that site and this means to me that the DA560mm is a FF offering, since there are a lot off lenses with vignetting there. So with lenscorrection, in camera or computer, this is all okay.


I have one offering for the lens in The Netherlands for a 12 % discount on the pre-order. Normal price is 5.999 euro at the time, but no lens arrived overhere.
03-10-2013, 03:53 AM   #274
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Unfortunately Pentaxforums didn't publish a retraction of their previous statement; sometimes, Pentaxians are more damaging to the brand than high nosed Canikon users.

03-10-2013, 09:20 AM   #275
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
eurostar, it's initial production volume: 400 units/month; we're not told for how long they will continue. I doubt they'll make only 400.


From here:
Nikon 600mm f/4G ED AF-S VR Nikkor Lens Vignetting Test Results
The point being that even a $13000 lens can show vignetting wide open. Well, according to you the Canon is not a FF lens...
'according to me'.

Could you show me where I mentioned anything about a Canon lens at all? My memory must be going.


If in the off-chance that you want to engage in a pleasant conversation, I will give you my source for comparison...

Canon EF 400mm f/5.6 USM L - Full Format Review / Test - Analysis

0.42EV on FF. $1300.

If we have to stop down to f/8 on the 560, it'll be a heckuva-lot like that 400mm canon with a 1.4TC (less than $2k), right? AF will be a bit worse of course, but MFD, etc., etc., will be vastly improved, too...
03-10-2013, 09:34 AM   #276
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
I think the problem of this lens is that Canon and Nikon have both raised the price of their long tele lenses, so Pentax can put this at 7000 $/€ and still be considered "cheap". But it's not cheap for the pocket of most Pentaxians interested in that lens. If I had that money, I would buy the used F*250-600/5,6...

Anyway, if they have produced just 400 of them, I guess it will be easy for them to sell everyone. Le't's hope in the used market, in a couple of years.
The issue is that here in europe, there is only few hundreds of euros between the Nikkor 500 f4 VR (6830 euros best street price) and the Pentax 560 f5.6 (6684 euros best street price today)... 600f4 is more expensive though at 8159 euros.
At that price point, nobody will buy the Pentax
03-10-2013, 10:07 AM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
'according to me'.

Could you show me where I mentioned anything about a Canon lens at all? My memory must be going.


If in the off-chance that you want to engage in a pleasant conversation, I will give you my source for comparison...

Canon EF 400mm f/5.6 USM L - Full Format Review / Test - Analysis

0.42EV on FF. $1300.

If we have to stop down to f/8 on the 560, it'll be a heckuva-lot like that 400mm canon with a 1.4TC (less than $2k), right? AF will be a bit worse of course, but MFD, etc., etc., will be vastly improved, too...
If you agree that the ~1.3EV vignetting in the extreme corners means the 560mm is not a FF lens, then by applying the same standards it means the ~1.2EV Canon 600mm f/4 is not a FF lens. This is called reductio ad absurdum and should strictly be applied to the vignetting argument.

I never said every FF lens will vignette like that; but some (and expensive ones!) do. Or the tests are wrong.

I would rather not reduce a lens' performance to it's extreme corners vignetting characteristics - "we have to stop down"?

The 400 f/5.6 apparently doesn't have the best resolution figures, add a TC and I'd be curious which are the "etc., etc.," which will be vastly improved.
03-10-2013, 10:16 AM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
If you agree that the ~1.3EV vignetting in the extreme corners means the 560mm is not a FF lens, then by applying the same standards it means the ~1.2EV Canon 600mm f/4 is not a FF lens.
assuming the tests were done the same way, then yes. There's corners and then there's corners.

Given one test that seemed to re-inforce Pentax's marketing of APS-C and APS-C focal length, I was believing Pentax.

03-10-2013, 10:19 AM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The 400 f/5.6 apparently doesn't have the best resolution figures, add a TC and I'd be curious which are the "etc., etc.," which will be vastly improved.
Weight (large difference), cost (large difference), handling (size, large difference), MFD (large difference), I'm sure I'm missing some.
03-10-2013, 10:48 AM   #280
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Given one test that seemed to re-inforce Pentax's marketing of APS-C and APS-C focal length, I was believing Pentax.
To my knowledge, Pentax never said the 560mm will not cover FF; you were believing assumptions made by 3rd-parties.
Please don't misunderstand, I'm not blaming you for anything - it's Pentaxforums' fault for hastily drawing conclusions.

A 400mm f/5.6 + 1.4TC will give you a 560mm f/8 lens; one stop slower than the Pentax - while not stabilized. And, while the Pentax' optical qualities are largely unknown, wouldn't the 400mm - not the sharpest lens ever made - suffer, when paired with a TC?
Some extreme corner vignetting is not a good enough reason to never shoot at f/5.6 with the Pentax. Sorry, I can't agree with this "equivalence".
03-10-2013, 11:03 AM   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote

The 400 f/5.6 apparently doesn't have the best resolution figures, add a TC and I'd be curious which are the "etc., etc.," which will be vastly improved.
I don't know where you got your information, but my ef 400mm f5.6L is sharp as a tack wide open and the AF is almost instant. With all the misinformation on the net (especially DPR) it's hard to tell what is true without trying it out first. I read conflicting reports about the EF300mm f4L is, but got a deal on a used one and figured I would try it out and even with a 2x it is sharp wide open. I use it a lot now as I like to have IS because my hands aren't very steady anymore. (and I hate tripods)

As much as marketing is trying to convince the masses, those who need reach don't use FF bodies anyway. Vignetting has always been there on most lenses wide open and it's not that big a deal.
03-10-2013, 11:18 AM   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
To my knowledge, Pentax never said the 560mm will not cover FF
I didn't say they didn't. But they marketed it as an APS-C lens, emphasizing the APS-C-ness of it. So I could easily believe Pentaxforums' tests.

FYI, the stabilization on the Pentax doesn't matter to me much. The sigma 500mm was about my limit for handheld; I've had a lingering left shoulder injury, and hand-holding the longer Pentax will be tougher.


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
A 400mm f/5.6 + 1.4TC will give you a 560mm f/8 lens; one stop slower than the Pentax - while not stabilized. And, while the Pentax' optical qualities are largely unknown, wouldn't the 400mm - not the sharpest lens ever made - suffer, when paired with a TC?
Some extreme corner vignetting is not a good enough reason to never shoot at f/5.6 with the Pentax. Sorry, I can't agree with this "equivalence".
Listen, I've never said that *I* wouldn't shoot the lens at f/5.6 because of vignetting. Heck, I'd usually shoot at f/8 anyway just for the depth-of-field. That's what I do now most of the time. But if I'm going to give up the really good things about the faster lenses - i.e. the autofocus, and/or shutterspeed when appropriate - and for what...? To save a bit of money?

I could (and did) save more by purchasing a Nikon and a used Nikon AF lens.
03-10-2013, 11:32 AM   #283
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QuoteOriginally posted by borno Quote
I don't know where you got your information, but my ef 400mm f5.6L is sharp as a tack wide open and the AF is almost instant.
slrgear.com, and please note I'm not saying it's bad.
Wide open and with a 1.4TC, will it be sharper than the 560mm closed to f/8? That is the question.
A truly excellent lens perfectly matched with a high quality TC could be, or maybe Pentax went crazy and priced that high a not-so-good lens. Or the equivalence doesn't stand up.
03-10-2013, 11:37 AM   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I didn't say they didn't. But they marketed it as an APS-C lens, emphasizing the APS-C-ness of it. So I could easily believe Pentaxforums' tests.

FYI, the stabilization on the Pentax doesn't matter to me much. The sigma 500mm was about my limit for handheld; I've had a lingering left shoulder injury, and hand-holding the longer Pentax will be tougher.
They're only marketing it as a lens matching the K-mount DSLRs, I'm not aware of any press release or whatever which claims it's an APS-C lens.

To you, it doesn't - but it might for others. By the way, the weight of those lenses is about the same - maybe the 560 would be hand-holdable as well?

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Listen, I've never said that *I* wouldn't shoot the lens at f/5.6 because of vignetting. Heck, I'd usually shoot at f/8 anyway just for the depth-of-field. That's what I do now most of the time. But if I'm going to give up the really good things about the faster lenses - i.e. the autofocus, and/or shutterspeed when appropriate - and for what...? To save a bit of money?

I could (and did) save more by purchasing a Nikon and a used Nikon AF lens.
I'm not sure I understand your point.
03-10-2013, 12:34 PM   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
slrgear.com, and please note I'm not saying it's bad.
Wide open and with a 1.4TC, will it be sharper than the 560mm closed to f/8? That is the question.
A truly excellent lens perfectly matched with a high quality TC could be, or maybe Pentax went crazy and priced that high a not-so-good lens. Or the equivalence doesn't stand up.
I would think the 560mm would be sharper and with a TC the bokeh can get kind of crazy. Branches do some crazy things to the bokeh even with a prime.
Here is a canon 300mm f4 wide open with a 2x (f8) sharp and no objectionable CA that I can see, but a little swirly on the bokeh. I got the lens for $700 and the 2x for $160.

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