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02-23-2013, 12:10 PM   #226
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@Clavius

When you are comparing the 6D against the K5IIs you are putting the best APS-C camera on the market against probably the lowest spec Full frame. Is that really worth a 75% price differential? Every specification on the 6D(mag alloy body apart), if it were found on an APS-C body would make it a very basic entry level camera.

02-23-2013, 12:20 PM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by evansph Quote
Every specification on the 6D(mag alloy body apart), if it were found on an APS-C body would make it a very basic entry level camera.
So it is a very basic, entry-level full frame camera. Clavius is illustrating precisely the choice a buyer must make.
02-23-2013, 12:27 PM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Moreover, it's a lie. Please quote where I expressed me favouring M4/3.
He must have confused you with me. This is the problem with personal attacks against people that you don't know (and not even remember after a few days) - sometimes you just hit the wrong person. This also shows how much attention is paid to who says what.
02-23-2013, 01:33 PM   #229
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All right. Time out and back to the discussion *without* the blows on each other. Passion is great but it can get out of hand very quickly.

The thing I will add here is the importance to realise the concept of the cost of diminishing returns. I do believe that FF cameras at this stage of the photographic world still lie on the exponentially increasing part of that curve. It was certainly even higher before, but it is still there now. Spending $2,000 on a tool for a hobby or past time isn't as little as we make it out to be for the vast majority of the world, even in the first world. We really all should consider ourselves fortunate that we can spend that kind of money whenever a new product we like comes out.

The point is that FF sales will certainly pail in comparison with APS-C sales by no other reason than cost. The K-5 II may not be considered cheaper than entry-level FFs by much, but they are currently more than 75% of the cost of either 6D or D600 and the K-5 will not remain at $1150 like the FFs will hold their value. The Pentax FF probably won't be an answer to either of these entry-level FFs. It will address a different market, filling the niche of enthusiasts wanting a solid FF camera inside and out, with the aspects that make Pentax stand out from the crowd (SR, WR, photographer-friendly UI and ergonomics). Such a camera, I believe, will be a success even at the $2,300-2,500 price point.

02-23-2013, 01:45 PM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
LOL! You consider the 6D, an FF body, that's almost as small as the K5II, [...]
How on earth can you claim that the 6D is almost as small as the K5??? It's almost as big as the 5D! It's really big!

I'd love to have a FF Pentax DSLR that I could use my mf lenses on with as much ease as on my LX and my ME Super before that, but I'd want it to be about as compact as the LX. If it had been as big as the 6D, it wouldn't be interesting to me at all.
02-23-2013, 03:11 PM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by deus ursus Quote
How on earth can you claim that the 6D is almost as small as the K5???
Easy:

1st: I own both, today I bought the 6D as addition to my 5DMKII and as a replacement for my small backup camera. I used to keep my K5 for it's small size and weight, but there's no need for that anymore now. I'll keep it for nostalgia though; because the resale value of the K5 is tragic. And I'll need something to put some lenses that I love on.

2nd: Measuring: Compare camera dimensions side by side The difference is negligible. The 6D is a tiny bit higher, but then again the K5 is tiny bit fatter. The 6D weighs the same as the K5. And it will enable me to use Pentax FF glass on its appropriate format; something Pentax itself won't even do. And when Pentax eventually does, it'll probably cost a fortune. Really, any camerabag that will fit the K5, will fit the 6D just as easy.
02-23-2013, 03:20 PM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Really, any camerabag that will fit the K5, will fit the 6D just as easy.
Really?
I can fit a K-5 and at least 4 lenses (including a 60-250) in a LowePro Nova 1. It's a tight fit, but everything sits there quite fine.
Good luck doing that with a 6D
02-23-2013, 04:12 PM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Easy:

[...]

2nd: Measuring: Compare camera dimensions side by side The difference is negligible. The 6D is a tiny bit higher, [...]
I've done that comparison myself. Those "tiny bits" of yours are pretty big IMHO. If you're looking for tiny bits, do the same comparison between the K-5 and a Fujifilm X-Pro1. Only the pentaprism prevents the K-5 from being smaller than the X-Pro1 (width and height-wise, that is).

Edit: Btw, that 6D wouldn't fit in my camera bag either.

02-23-2013, 04:54 PM   #234
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It would be more instructive to assemble a kit of camera and lenses for both systems since you will never be carrying just a camera body. The Canon lenses are noticeably bigger and heavier than the Pentax counterparts, in part perhaps because of the IS in the longer Canon lenses. Even if you compare similar lenses (assuming a mythical Pentax FF camera) the Canon 50 1.4 is heavier than the FA50/1.4 or 43 Limited, both Canon 100/2.8 Macro lenses (IS and non IS) are much heavier than the Pentax 100/2.8 WR Macro and the FA28/2.8 is lighter than the EF 28/2.8 USM. On the other hand the Canon 200/2.8 is lighter than the Pentax DA200/2.8.

Even with a slimmed down 6D it looks like carrying a Pentax kit will still be easier than carrying a Canon one.
02-23-2013, 05:35 PM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The investment community doesn't want them to spend the money. It is clear from their writings, at least some Japanese security analysts would lower thier earnings projections for Ricoh if they made a major effort to increase camera market share.
So your earlier
QuoteQuote:
Be of good cheer, Pentaxians. Ricoh has a plan and you will be happy.
Should have been amended with
QuoteQuote:
...but not anytime soon, because Ricoh doesn't have the funds to put the plan into action.
?

I don't mean to question you or even come across as being aggressive. I'm genuinely interested why you have been optimistic before but now are painting a pretty dark picture.

BTW, my K100D has eight (8) cross-type AF points more than the Canon 6D. That's just not right. Keeping my fingers crossed that Pentax can come up with a decent FF offering before the big two will have shut the door completely.
02-23-2013, 06:15 PM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I'm genuinely interested why you have been optimistic before but now are painting a pretty dark picture.
Now that's a legitimate question. I believe both are true, and that in December of 2011 Ricoh was very optimistic about aggressively investing in Pentax and developing market share - and Ricoh still is. What investment writers write is not necessarily what Ricoh will do, and whether earnings expectations are reduced early in 2013 doesn't mean they will necessarily be reduced in 6 months if the same investment is made by Ricoh.

What I don't think (and this is pure speculation) they anticipated was the first loss making year since Ricoh went public, and the necessity to take strong actions at the Business Machines company to control costs, rationalize their global employee count and distribution network and integrate IKON Office Systems (ourcahsed in 2008) into Ricoh. There was apparently significant waste and duplication in Business Systems. During that time Ricoh the parent company may have told Pentax Ricoh - you'll just have to wait. This program of restructuring is nearly complete and has apparently had strong positive effects on Ricoh financially.

Further, 4Q2011 globally was not a good time for camera makers generally. Canon and Nikon saw sales declines between 25% and 35%. Most others also saw declines. Where the corporate issues at Ricoh hurt Pentax was in the 2nd half of 2012, when the other companies brought new products and Pentax had - K30 (a hit), K5IIs, Q10 and K-01.

But as I wrote then, look at how many items they actually did show at CP+!!

Of course if they now feel they can move Pentax (and I've only reported what I have read happened, not what I think will happen) the market has changed. The other guys have consolidated their positions, etc. As I said above, we'll see what happens in the next 12 months, but my bet is the global economy led by emerging countries will be OK. Never forget I'm just a guy from Missouri who reads about companies. I don't write Research Reports or anything like that.

I believe Ricoh has a (long term) plan for Pentax and we will (eventually) be happy.
02-23-2013, 06:59 PM   #237
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Sooo... Much.... Hate....

Seriously guys; is it really worth all this argumentative banter?

I look at it this way; we've just had the 7100 released. For quite a time now our much-loved K5 has ruled the roost from an IQ perspective and with all the features we all know Pentax has (WR, in body SR, donkeys years of classic glass). The 5200 came out (and at least on a DxO ranking) matched it; I would hazard a guess that the 7100 may just take the crown away from the K5.
BUT; Nikon have come out of the gates first. It's set the 2013 benchmark int eh APS-C class. It's now a case of waiting and seeing what Canon, Pentax, Sony (tho do we really care about this one? - hehe), and even Olympus (there is rumour of a new OMD due) can come up with.
Regardless - this is going to be a VERY good year for gear junkies!

I'm sure Canon will come out with a 7DmkII with a few upgrades. They can get away with it because, well - theyre Canon and have something ridiculous like 60% of the Market. The next OMD will be a ditto I would think.
It's Pentax that has the real 'unknown' up their sleeve. With the exception of the K5 Service Pack 2; sorry K5IIs... this will be the first *real* release of the big P under the leadership of Richo.
02-23-2013, 08:01 PM   #238
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All I know is that when I was at Costco a few days ago I held a 7D for the first time and I thought to myself, "Man is this thing big!" It just did not feel right in my hands. I then held the D600 and it also did not feel as good in my hands as the K-5. I am perfectly happy using a camera that is several years old....so BLAH on all of you!
02-23-2013, 08:07 PM   #239
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are you sure?Full frame?
02-23-2013, 08:31 PM   #240
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They are going to stick a sensor that is 1.5 x the size of a full frame sensor in there, make it weather sealed, ISO 25-204800, 48mp, wireless tethering, gps, astrotracking, in body SR, antigravity tripod (look ma, it's floating!) and you can program it to go out and take pictures for you via remote control! By using space age composites it will weigh 3 ounces, and will be the size of the K-01. The kit lens is a 4mm-4000mm f/1.2-32 equivalent that will weigh 2 ounces when not on (thank you gravity lensing) and is based the same technology that the antigravity tripod and camera propulsion uses, and has such incredible sharpness that you can see a zit on a gnat, and the bokeh? Well, let's say that cream isn't as creamy as that bokeh, It's more dreamlike than anything you've ever seen!. That is all for the low price of $599.95!

That's my prediction as to why it's been taking so long for them to get the true K5 replacement out. Of course if it were true there would still be complainers telling us why Pentax is doomed and how Canon/Nikon/someone else is doing it better....
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