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04-04-2013, 07:04 AM   #586
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon404 Quote
This whole FF thing is silly. Who needs it, anyway? Of all the people who buy DSLRs, how many ACTUALLY need FF compared to APS-C? I mean, for web use, or printouts on that home Epson, APS-C is already overkill. Full frame? For what, 20" x 30" prints? This whole thing is sort of a herd-lust-mentality hustle.

As it stands, Pentax makes very good cameras. They just need to learn marketing.

@monochrome -- re how to sell to the soccer moms -- maybe co-branded with Louis Vuitton? A chic brown leather case covering, with those indecipherable pseudo-astrological gold symbols?
The more important subject centers around why people have bought a D4, 5D, D800, etc. Was sensor size the biggest factor or was it something else like AF reliability (and speed), burst rate, dual cards, flash system integration, buffer size, brand cache, or other? Until that's really understood, primarily by Pentax, the need and opportunity aren't all that well known, IMHO.

04-04-2013, 07:31 AM - 1 Like   #587
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
The more important subject centers around why people have bought a D4, 5D, D800, etc. Was sensor size the biggest factor or was it something else like AF reliability (and speed), burst rate, dual cards, flash system integration, buffer size, brand cache, or other? Until that's really understood, primarily by Pentax, the need and opportunity aren't all that well known, IMHO.
Enthusiast amateurs and true professionals who need and know how these features (including the FF sensor) make them more productive will make rational purchase decisions (and in many cases will select APSc and maybe Pentax for tasks that the price / output ratio is positive). I am referring to "Brand Consumers" who buy on a walk-in basis in retail camera stores (not on their accounts at the professional stores).

I'm referring to my former co-worker who walked into a Creve Couer Camera store here on a Saturday, bought the highest spec'd Nikon they had in stock, the best [EDIT: IIRC f/2.8G VR] 24-70 and 70-200 zooms they had and the best bag they would fit in - all without any forethought - because, after all, its our children. I'm talking about a suburban woman who wants a vacation camera (and maybe holidays) and gets a salesman to sell her a D7100 and a zoom lens the same way my father had an F1 System and my brother was given an OM1 System when a Canonet would have served both of them just fine.

In 1977 I received a new KX and one lens at graduation and was happy to use it for 8 years, not a K2DMD (until I was 50). I bought an MESuper at end-of-run and one lens, not an MX, and used that for 20 years. I FINALLY bought an LX this year. I play around with a K-01 and Q's but I still use a K10D, not a K-5. If Pentax makes a true pro-spec FF camera they'd better expect to make a high margin on a few sales because no regular consumer is going looking for it on the internet. They don't even know Pentax exists and there is no store salesman to do the convincing. I'd probably buy one because I'd use it - but I'm an outlier.

I think that's also true about a consumer-grade FF and Pentax knows it, which is why they've been so reluctant to release one. They certainly have the money and technical skill to build one - but they can't sell many without distributor support - and they surely don't have that. I wouldn't buy one - I'd get the next semi-pro APSc instead.

Last edited by monochrome; 04-04-2013 at 11:07 AM.
04-04-2013, 07:33 AM   #588
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
I wouldn't never suggest a Pentax FF camera should be sold with cheap consumer zooms. If it were up to me, I'd just have it sold as body only with options to sell it bundled with one, two or three FA Limited lenses.
Now that would be a pretty badass kit. And a ballsy way to potentially garner some attention on the showroom floor
04-04-2013, 08:30 AM   #589
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
....

I'm referring to my co-worker who walked into a Creve Couer Camera store here on a Saturday, bought the highest spec'd Nikon they had in stock, the best 28-70 and 70-210 zooms they had and the best bag they would fit in - all without any forethought - becasue, after all, its our children. I'm talking about a suburban woman who wants a vacation camera (and maybe holidays) and gets a salesman to sell her a D7100 and a zoom lens the same way my father had an F1 System and my brother was given an OM1 System when a Canonet would have served both of them just fine

.....
Wow -- a D4 with those two lenses is over $10k (assuming they were both Nikon f2.8 zooms)! Frankly, almost every D4 I've seen was being used by a professional, not some regular guy walking in off the street looking for a camera to buy.

Perhaps to better state my thought from my prior post.... In the big scheme of things, if Pentax does come out with a FF camera we pretty much know it's going to be a high-end offering. By high-end, I mean something that's going to be north of $2k which in the large world of cameras is a lot of money. It be best to know what people are looking for and/or need when they decide to spend high-end money on a camera. The primary feature might be sensor size but then again it might not. Hopefully Pentax has some understanding of the market drivers.

04-04-2013, 10:51 AM   #590
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Wow -- a D4 with those two lenses is over $10k (assuming they were both Nikon f2.8 zooms)! Frankly, almost every D4 I've seen was being used by a professional, not some regular guy walking in off the street looking for a camera to buy.
True story - really! A few years ago, so not a D4 - but the $$$ are about right. The lenses were probably 24-70/2.8 G and 70-200/2.8G VR's, not VRII's. He has since moved on to bigger and better things and I don't remember precisely except that I had just gotten the K2DMD and that was 6 years ago.

To his credit, the guy showed me some publishable landscapes from a Colorado trip but the kit really was for watching his kids grow up.

Last edited by monochrome; 04-04-2013 at 10:58 AM.
04-04-2013, 11:22 AM   #591
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I'm referring to my former co-worker who walked into a Creve Couer Camera store here on a Saturday, bought the highest spec'd Nikon they had in stock, the best [EDIT: IIRC f/2.8G VR] 24-70 and 70-200 zooms they had and the best bag they would fit in - all without any forethought - because, after all, its our children. I'm talking about a suburban woman who wants a vacation camera (and maybe holidays) and gets a salesman to sell her a D7100 and a zoom lens the same way my father had an F1 System and my brother was given an OM1 System when a Canonet would have served both of them just fine.
Small world, I went to creve coeur camera this past saturday to buy a monopod to use with my Sigma 120-400mm
They even have Pentax lenses in stock
04-04-2013, 12:07 PM   #592
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Hey Pentax its April already, didn't you read the Nippon article.

BTW.

Canon 6d $1799
Nikon d600 $1899

Prices are getting pretty sick over her in Canada. Don't you want my money?

Last edited by Belnan; 04-04-2013 at 12:38 PM. Reason: correction
04-04-2013, 12:15 PM   #593
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
The more important subject centers around why people have bought a D4, 5D, D800, etc. Was sensor size the biggest factor or was it something else like AF reliability (and speed), burst rate, dual cards, flash system integration, buffer size, brand cache, or other? Until that's really understood, primarily by Pentax, the need and opportunity aren't all that well known, IMHO.
IMHO (I am just a beginner), FF is truly needed for subject isolation and such. It can truly be used to the fullest extent by an advanced amateur. For majority of the general public (who happens to be the volume buyers), they just get it because of the Canikon marketing or what they read in the review sites. In US at least, most of the consumers are spoled and spend more on camera than on lenses. I mean, buying a FF with kit lens and maybe a cheap telezoom lens.

I don't think Pentax can play the same field as Canikon and try to come out winners. If they make a stellar APS-C that's truly different and appeals to the masses, I am sure they will sell a crop load of them. Plus, getting some presence in the key retail stores (just the major ones like sams club, costco, bestbuy etc.) will help a lot. People go to these stores for buying cameras (not target or walmart, usually). I don't think FF alone will the game changer for Pentax.

04-04-2013, 12:29 PM   #594
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QuoteOriginally posted by urundai Quote
I mean, buying a FF with kit lens and maybe a cheap telezoom lens.
I have a D600 with the 24-85mm 'cheap' lens. It was REALLY cheap, because it was free - when I bought it the kit cost and the body cost were the same.

I actually have one other lens for it, which was the reason I bought it, but let's say I didn't.

But for $2k, I got a D600 with the same SNR and DR as the $3k D800, with a $500 lens.

That lens performs on FF the same way an APS-C would be a 15-55mm F/2.2-2.8.

The K-5II with the 16-50mm lists at $2600 or something. The lens is on sale for $1000 right now, and the camera is $1100, so let's say $2100.


So for an extra $100, the Pentax has far less opportunity to upgrade in terms of lens speed, has a slightly slower, less wide, less long lens that has a history of sudden death, etc., etc.

I love Pentax, still have my K-5, and expect to eventually sell my Nikon. The Pentax has a lot of things going for it, but mocking the D600 with a "cheap" lens is wrong, IMO.
04-04-2013, 12:36 PM   #595
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
So for an extra $100, the Pentax has far less opportunity to upgrade in terms of lens speed, has a slightly slower, less wide, less long lens that has a history of sudden death, etc., etc.

The Pentax has a lot of things going for it, but mocking the D600 with a "cheap" lens is wrong, IMO.
If you compare the cameras, they are not at the same level, right? A plasticky one against a magnesium body, full weather sealed? A non weather sealed lens against a weather sealed lens. Plus, you can't get the D600 kit for $2k anymore. As with the SDM failures, D600 isn't free of issues either with the dust spots etc.

To be clear, I never called D600 as cheap. It's a great camera which I looked at closely before giving up due to the various QC issues with Nikon. I just pointed out the practice of many folks that I know who buy expensive cameras and pair it nothing more than just a cheap lens. To me, it doesn't make sense.
04-04-2013, 12:43 PM   #596
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QuoteOriginally posted by urundai Quote
IMHO (I am just a beginner), FF is truly needed for subject isolation and such. It can truly be used to the fullest extent by an advanced amateur. .
Honestly, subject isolation is about positioning your subject in relation to the background and using the right lens. It is easy to do on four thirds, full frame and APS-C. Full frame is one stop better -- useful when shooting wide-r angles, but otherwise, not the end of the world different. As I have said before, the biggest question is whether or not companies have fast lenses available.

With the DA *55 on a K5 (original)


04-04-2013, 12:59 PM   #597
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Honestly, subject isolation is about positioning your subject in relation to the background and using the right lens. It is easy to do on four thirds, full frame and APS-C. Full frame is one stop better -- useful when shooting wide-r angles, but otherwise, not the end of the world different. As I have said before, the biggest question is whether or not companies have fast lenses available.

With the DA *55 on a K5 (original)


Definitely not the end of the world. You can achieve more isolation at the same f stop (due to the 1 stop advantage).

For my casual photography, APS-C is good enough. Actually, K-30 itself is a good match for my skills. I got the K-5, just because I can get it for the same price .
04-04-2013, 01:04 PM   #598
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
the biggest question is whether or not companies have fast lenses available.
Which Pentax does not have in abundance. Its to bad they don't have a da* 33 1.4. That would be a nice compliment to the 55.

PS. Lovely Picture.
04-04-2013, 01:07 PM   #599
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QuoteOriginally posted by Belnan Quote
Which Pentax does not have in abundance. Its to bad they don't have a da* 33 1.4. That would be a nice compliment to the 55.

PS. Lovely Picture.
Wouldn't the upcoming SIGMA 35 1.4 help bridge the gap? Granted it isn't Pentax and DA*, but will at least move the needle a wee bit.
04-04-2013, 01:16 PM   #600
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QuoteOriginally posted by urundai Quote
If you compare the cameras, they are not at the same level, right? A plasticky one against a magnesium body, full weather sealed?
It's impossible to have any two cameras be 'the same level'. They're the same cost, though, with lens, so it makes sense to compare them on that reason alone. I like the feel of the K-5 better, sure. But the D600 has a metal frame. I'm 100% sure that the camera won't fail on me because the engineers chose to use some polymers here and some metals there.

QuoteOriginally posted by urundai Quote
A non weather sealed lens against a weather sealed lens. Plus, you can't get the D600 kit for $2k anymore. As with the SDM failures, D600 isn't free of issues either with the dust spots etc.
1) Both lenses are weather sealed. People think that the Pentax is sealed better. Pentax certainly advertises it more. I'd guess the Pentax is better sealed, too, but the D600's lens has seals, and certainly will not let in nearly as much salt water at the ocean as my 15mm Limited will.

2) You can't get the kit for $2k any more, but you will be able to soon, and in another month Pentax will probably jerk us around again (or introduce a new lens, hopefully?) and you won't be able to get the flagship APS-C camera and flagship lens for $2100, either... and that combo will still underperform in terms of objectively measured IQ (if you care about that).

3) D600 has dust spots. I just got mine back a week ago. I also had to send in my K-5 twice, once for the lens button and once for the sensor stain. The sensor stain won't come back, and the debris that was in the D600 from the factory won't come back, either. Both of those failures were infant mortalities. On the other hand, many, many people have had the SDM fail after the 1-year warranty (Nikon is no better, but Nikon doesn't have as strong a history of lens failure).




QuoteQuote:
I just pointed out the practice of many folks that I know who buy expensive cameras and pair it nothing more than just a cheap lens. To me, it doesn't make sense.
To me, it makes complete sense for most people who are looking to spend $2k. You have far more room to grow than tying yourself to an APS-C system, for the same initial cost. The only reason in my mind to go pentax is the excellent ergonomics and the lovely feel, and in some cases IQ, of the limited lenses. There are other lenses that are good, too, of course.
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