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04-05-2013, 02:22 PM   #631
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Just remember it's not just about market share. As long as there are a good *absolute* number of FF buyers, then the niche development will grow legs and survive in the business world. Pentax have not enjoyed a huge market share in the photography world for many years - they've geared themselves to be more of a photographer's brand rather than a consumer electronics brand like Sony, Panasonic, et al, who have huge budgets. This is no indictment on Pentax. It means Pentax is more interested in quality, not quantity. And more focused on their niche customer base of enthusiasts rather than trying to be everything to everybody. This is one reason why I think a Pentax FF body would be a good idea for them. It is a small niche market that would definitely satisfy more than 6% of Pentaxians (therefore be viable) but would also boost the brand, and be true to their core business of developing tools by photographers for photographers.

04-05-2013, 03:21 PM   #632
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The entire product plan is dependent on the price of the sensors. Marginal costs of the rest of the camera versus a comparably spec'ed APSc are fairly limited.

There might be some small derivatives from lenses and accessories but the volume of those would be even more limited and targeted than the camera bodies. That doesn't mean it is impossible. But the product plan and pricing decision is a great deal more complex then we asend users can imagine.
04-05-2013, 07:16 PM   #633
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OK. Now, this is going to sound stupid, but couldn't you simulate FF quality in software? I'm imagining that your APS-C camera could wifi or upload an image to Pentax Web, where a very large computer with Hollywood-level software could process the image and return it as, say, a 24 or 30 MP picture with excellent IQ. Aren't there companies doing this sort of image-enhancement thing? Might be a way to get off the large-sensor > greater cost roller coaster.
04-05-2013, 10:36 PM   #634
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon404 Quote
OK. Now, this is going to sound stupid, but couldn't you simulate FF quality in software? I'm imagining that your APS-C camera could wifi or upload an image to Pentax Web, where a very large computer with Hollywood-level software could process the image and return it as, say, a 24 or 30 MP picture with excellent IQ. Aren't there companies doing this sort of image-enhancement thing? Might be a way to get off the large-sensor > greater cost roller coaster.
There's the 'auto' button in Lightroom and other image software tools.

Most people seem to fine-tune it.

Of course you can do the same with a FF image, too.

Is a correctly-processed APS-C image 'better' than a FF out-of-camera? 99% of the time, yes.

Will the APS-C have better resolution? 99% of the time, no.

Will the APS-C be able to simulate the DOF control of the FF camera? I've never seen it. The fake bokeh I've seen looks terrible to my eyes. The fake bokeh I've tried to create looks far worse. I'd much rather spend the extra $500 for a FF camera and not spend the time in front of the monitor.

04-05-2013, 10:54 PM   #635
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ElJam -- why is the APS-C bokeh fake? Isn't an out-of -focus background just an out-of-focus background, no matter what camera you use to produce it? Unless I'm wrong, the viewer almost always concentrates on the subject in focus. I've read a lot on these posts about good vs bad bokeh, but do viewers care, or even notice the differences that nine-blade vs five-blade apertures produce, or whatever?

Please let me know what I'm not understanding here.
04-06-2013, 12:37 AM   #636
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Back when the D3 was released, the D700 (the "budget" FX) was about $3,000, the D300s (the "pro" DX) was about $1800.
Fast forward to today, the D600 is about $2000 is while the D7100 is about $1200. The price differential has shrunk 33% within only a few years. There is still a big difference between entry DX and entry FX...but the gap between enthusiast DX and FX is definitely shrinking. That is why Pentax has to be real careful with the "K-3" pricing. If they price it too high, like they did initially with the K-01 and Q, they will really screw themselves.
True, but comparing D7100 vs D300s isn't really fair. They don't occupy the same space in the range. But pricing of FF certainly diminished as well as (but somewhat only) expert APS-C. How will pro APS-C cams react? We dunno. We need 7D mk2 and D400 to judge.
04-06-2013, 02:28 AM   #637
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Well, if you're bring PP techniques into the fold, then that isn't true: DOF "control" (or rather "thin" DOF) is attainable by simply adding blur in post. My sister has sold literally hundreds of images used for bookcovers with that technique.
Photoshoped 'DOF blur' is either pretty bad (did look into it in last Photoshop editions though) or very badly used.
I have yet to find a picture where it really looks as if it was coming from the lens.

Personaly (I insist, this is really only my opinion), faking DOF blur with Photoshop but for fun is irrelevant.
04-06-2013, 02:58 AM   #638
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
True, but comparing D7100 vs D300s isn't really fair. They don't occupy the same space in the range. But pricing of FF certainly diminished as well as (but somewhat only) expert APS-C. How will pro APS-C cams react? We dunno. We need 7D mk2 and D400 to judge.
I know but I was looking at the top DX as of right now. The truth is that the D400 will probably be more expensive than theD7100 and therefore would make the price difference even smaller between FX and DX. As a pentaxian, it woukd be nice to have the choice without switching brands.

04-06-2013, 05:43 AM   #639
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I know but I was looking at the top DX as of right now. The truth is that the D400 will probably be more expensive than theD7100 and therefore would make the price difference even smaller between FX and DX. As a pentaxian, it woukd be nice to have the choice without switching brands.
Agreed. The D400/7D mk2 thingie is not knowing if the price difference between APS and FF is small, expected or whatever. It is small.
The interesting thing left is does the 'low end' FF push the high end APS down much if at all?

Canon and Nikon both launched 'low' price FF but those bodies are cut down versions in a way or another. This is done to protect both higher end FF bodies and high end APS bodies. I wonder how much this strategy might work or not.
04-06-2013, 05:47 AM   #640
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Canon and Nikon both launched 'low' price FF but those bodies are cut down versions in a way or another. This is done to protect both higher end FF bodies and high end APS bodies. I wonder how much this strategy might work or not.
Pentax has no high end FF bodies to protect... may be they can release a FF body with the same functionnalites and build quality as the K5...
04-06-2013, 06:05 AM   #641
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
What do you mean? You make it sound like FF digital (and medium format digital) is a new technology. They have been around for many years and there are millions of photographs available online taken with FF and MF digital cameras that have nailed focus which you can blow up to 100% and see that they are perfectly sharp.
I agree. I have quite the number of both full frame digitals and also medium format (digital back). It's ironic that a Hasselblad or Mamiya can focus almost as fast as the top of the line Pentax. And that either a Nikon D$ or similar Canon full framer can focus considerably faster than anything Pentax has ever offered
04-06-2013, 07:09 AM   #642
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
I agree. I have quite the number of both full frame digitals and also medium format (digital back). It's ironic that a Hasselblad or Mamiya can focus almost as fast as the top of the line Pentax. And that either a Nikon D$ or similar Canon full framer can focus considerably faster than anything Pentax has ever offered
I don't know what "considerably faster" means but my K-30 w/ 18-135 WR focuses about as close to "instantly" as one could hope for or even imagine.
04-06-2013, 08:46 AM   #643
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon404 Quote
ElJam -- why is the APS-C bokeh fake? Isn't an out-of -focus background just an out-of-focus background, no matter what camera you use to produce it? Unless I'm wrong, the viewer almost always concentrates on the subject in focus. I've read a lot on these posts about good vs bad bokeh, but do viewers care, or even notice the differences that nine-blade vs five-blade apertures produce, or whatever?

Please let me know what I'm not understanding here.
I'm not saying that someone else should think that 'fake' bokeh is bad - *I* think it looks bad, and I don't want to take pictures with it.

I've tried to 'add' bokeh in the past, and I haven't been good at it. I would think that a camera could take a few pictures with varying focus, and merge them together for simulated bokeh. Nevetheless the images I've seen where that was attempted look 'smeared' to me.

The images where photoshop was used to make bokeh vary from terrible to acceptable in my mind. Most of them are towards the 'bad' end of the spectrum, including all the ones that I've done (I'm not a photoshop master and I don't hope to be). There are certainly people who can spend a few hours on an image and make it look OK.

Does a 'normal' viewer notice the difference? I don't think so. Most of the time I'm not producing images for normal viewers, though.
04-06-2013, 10:24 AM   #644
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
I agree. I have quite the number of both full frame digitals and also medium format (digital back). It's ironic that a Hasselblad or Mamiya can focus almost as fast as the top of the line Pentax. And that either a Nikon D$ or similar Canon full framer can focus considerably faster than anything Pentax has ever offered
You are a fascinating person. If someone asked me to show him the prototype of a pessimist, I would point him to you (and maybe ogl, but he is more emotional, which has some manic phases). Please, no pun intended! Just my personal opinion based on my observation here. What would it cost you to say, that Pentax can focus faster as Hasselblad or Mamiya, which essentialy ist the same information as you gave?

But actually for the rest I just can't find any base for your claims, they seem to be either pure polemics, just deep personal disappointment, or misinformation? The last quantitative test on AF-systems did not show any speed problems with the K-5, not even the newest K-5II AF-system. The opposite, it just won this test:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/154373-pentax-k-5-exce...ocus-test.html
Here the test (in german): http://www.colorfoto.de/testbericht/7/7/6/2/0/2/Test_Autofokus_ColorFoto_2011-09.pdf
04-06-2013, 10:43 AM   #645
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You have to realize, when Medium Format Pro makes these comparisons.. quite often he is comparing Pentax with the best available. He is not talking about systems that cost the same. A lot of the magazines compare comparably priced equipment, and even if MFP won't say it, Pentax gives you great bang for buck, possibly top of class in it's price range and that includes speed of AF accuracy of AF, features and many other categories. That being said. if you want to start comparing it to systems that cost 2 or 3 times as much, well Pentax engineers can only produce so much magic over there in the Pentax labs inside the volcano on the deserted island. So if you look at the right way, he's actually quite optimisitic, look at the cameras, and the cost of the camera he's comparing them too. It's almost an honor to be included in the same sentence.
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