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05-11-2013, 05:50 PM   #931
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
  1. A bigger brighter view finder. These are not point and shoot cameras, I want to be able to see what I'm shooting
  2. A cleaner image with less noise at 400 and 800 iso. I know everyone says the k-5 is great at that iso, but not good enough for me. I want to be able to shoot at 400 and have it look like 100.
  3. More mega-pixels. 24mp is fine. 20 or 22 is OK as well. Why? Cause I want them.

Full Frame? Meh. Convince me I need it.
When's the last time you looked through the viewfinder of a full frame camera?

05-11-2013, 05:55 PM   #932
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
When's the last time you looked through the viewfinder of a full frame camera?
Last week. I had the chance to use (briefly) both a D800 and a 5dmkII.
05-11-2013, 05:57 PM   #933
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Last week. I had the chance to use (briefly) both a D800 and a 5dmkII.
You didn't think they had a bigger, brighter viewfinder(s) than your camera?
05-11-2013, 06:13 PM   #934
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
You didn't think they had a bigger, brighter viewfinder(s) than your camera?
I certainly did. Magnificent! Which is why I asked for a bigger brighter view finder in any new camera. Are you saying that this is only possible with a FF camera?

05-11-2013, 06:48 PM   #935
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QuoteQuote:
Which is why I asked for a bigger brighter view finder in any new camera. Are you saying that this is only possible with a FF camera?
I am not sure I understand this question, if it not ment as sarcasm.

The mirror in a (D)SLR covers the full area of the sensor, and should send all the relevant light to the penta mirror or prism.

For bigger sensors, the mirror can send more light.

All you can do short of implementing a EVF with its amplifying capacity is to optimize the path of the light. Pentax is already using a high quality penta prism in the K7/K5, and multi coated glass all along. There is not so much more they can do. They can make the finder brighter, if they make it smaller. Or they can make it bigger, and darker.

Please correct me, if I misunderstood.

EDIT:
By using fresnel like elements, they can make a part of the picture brighter, but it will make the other parts darker.
05-11-2013, 06:53 PM   #936
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Let's move away from political issues and get back to the subject. We've probably worn out the discussion a few times over, but what else could there be in the pipeline other than the K-3/s and 645D II?
I don't have a concrete answer, but I would suggest that we remember that Pentax/Ricoh don't create their own sensors, so any bodies they develop have to be based around someone else's sensors. So if you're really keen to see what might be in the pipeline, start paying attention to announcements from sensor manufacturers.

My loose understanding of the sensor market is that there are some interesting new entrants, particularly Toshiba and Aptina. Both of these firms seem to be dealing mainly (perhaps exclusively?) with Nikon. I don't think that Pentax and Samsung are bosom buddies these days, so that basically leaves Pentax beholden to Sony for mass-market (i.e. not medium format) sensors.

Surely someone in the PF can chime in and correct/clarify what I've said here....
05-11-2013, 07:02 PM   #937
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I certainly did. Magnificent! Which is why I asked for a bigger brighter view finder in any new camera. Are you saying that this is only possible with a FF camera?
As it happens, I was musing no long ago that it should be possible to create what is effectively a FF camera with a smaller-than-FF sensor. With an FF lens and mirror, you could have an FF viewfinder with, say, an APS-C sensor. But this would seem like a rather unattractive product, don't you think?

Alternately, of course, mirrorless and liveview displays can be much larger than even FF viewfinders, but I don't think that's what you had in mind!
05-11-2013, 07:04 PM   #938
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
In a (possibly futile) attempt to steer this back onto topic and avoid a thread closure:

I really love my k-5, but if I were to buy a new camera in 2013 here is what I want:
  1. A bigger brighter view finder. These are not point and shoot cameras, I want to be able to see what I'm shooting
  2. A cleaner image with less noise at 400 and 800 iso. I know everyone says the k-5 is great at that iso, but not good enough for me. I want to be able to shoot at 400 and have it look like 100.
  3. Bigger dynamic range.
  4. More mega-pixels. 24mp is fine. 20 or 22 is OK as well. Why? Cause I want them.
  5. Focus peaking. Love this on the k-01, it needs to be on any new camera
  6. Support for tethered shooting. I don't think you can call a camera 'pro' or 'semi-pro' without tethering these days. it is just too useful.


Full Frame? Meh. Convince me I need it.
Faster AF? Meh. I don't shoot that fast, I'm old.
More FPS? Meh. 1 per second is way too fast for me.
Wi-fi? Meh, Stick it in the grip so I don't have to tote it around if I don't want it.
Dual SD cards? Meh. Buy a bigger card.
Your own wishlist is what a FF camera would offer you except the focus peaking (maybe).

So it appears that you have talked yourself into wanting/needing a FF.

05-11-2013, 07:13 PM   #939
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I certainly did. Magnificent! Which is why I asked for a bigger brighter view finder in any new camera. Are you saying that this is only possible with a FF camera?
Not in the least! It's quite possible, it just never happens in the marketplace. A 35mm F/1.8 APS-C, together with the right prism, could provide the same size viewfinder with the same brightness as a FF 50mm F/2.8 lens or so.

In practice it doesn't happen, though.
05-11-2013, 07:23 PM   #940
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
on a Forum devoted to spending thousands of dollars on what amounts to wasteful ephemeral entertainment
Entertainment can be useful at times. And in any case Art isn't merely entertainment, it shows an interst in philosophical growth through perspective,observation and interpretation. Without those things we are nothing better than drones in a beehive.The tools we use to create art in the end have little consequence, because all that matters is the result.

I would be perfectly happy using my Ebony 8X10 view camera for the rest of my days, though I'm aware many people don't have the luxury of having a collection of photographic tools at their disposal like I do.

Last edited by Digitalis; 05-12-2013 at 02:25 AM.
05-11-2013, 10:12 PM   #941
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Art isn't merely entertainment, it shows an interst in philosophical growth through perspective,observation,interpretation
I get what you're talking about, monochrome - after all it's all just different forms of hedonism, but we aren't mandated to exist in this world without the pursuit of happiness the way each of us desires it. And at least here, we're all pretty much passionate enough about photography to invest in such equipment that empowers us to create imagery/art the way we see it an interpret it for the betterment of each other.
05-12-2013, 12:34 AM   #942
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
I would be perfectly happy using my Ebony 8X10 view camera for the rest of my days, though I'm aware many people don't have the luxury of having a collection oh photographic tools at their disposal like I do.
Yeah, I didn't touch my K5 for a couple months now.
My Mamiya C330 and my CamboSCII though are regurarly used.

Strange huh ? Digital is boring
05-12-2013, 09:00 AM   #943
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Bigger and Brighter VF with APS-C

@jatrax
@asw66
@ElJamoquio

Have you investigated how this could be done?

There are 2 basicly different possibilities, which both have a couple of disadvantages.

1) Change the path of light before it reaches the mirror. This affects sensor and VF.

It could be done with a removable adapter beween lens and body. In fact it would bundle the light ment for FF to the APS-C area. The technology is well understood, and I even heard some start-up wants to produce and sell such adapters.
The advantage would not only be a brighter VF, but also give you roughly one stop more of light for the sensor.

However, the problems will be the same as with rear macro adapters, and with adapters correcting for register distance (let's say, to use Canon lenses on Pentax SLRs). You don't want to worsen IQ, so it should be developed together with the lens with which it will be used, being part of the lens design. If used with another lens - even the same focus length and aperture - could in worst case scenarios reverse the optical corrections implemented in the lens itself. After all, these corrections are done in different ways with different lenses.

2) Change the path of light between mirror and VF. This would affect VF only.

Possible strategies:

a) Put lenses between mirror and screen. The complete volume of the VF system would probably be 3 or 4 times of what it is now.
The diameter of the additional lens system could not be smaller than the diagonal of the mirror, and there would have to be some minimum distance between the lenses and the screen, making the body much higher.

b) Replace the screen by a lens system, design a new kind of prism, and put the screen between prism and a newly designed replacement for the ocular. Again, now the VF system would be much higher (and probably longer) than it is now.

c) Remove ALL optics located between mirror and prism, and put new optics and screen between prism and ocular. I think, also in this case the prism would have to be much bigger than it is with a standard FF body.

What's true for all 3 possible solutions is: The size of the mirror would have to be as for a FF sensor, and the system would have to be switchable so you could still use lenses designed for APS-C. A third (and real) problem could be the additional production cost.

Manufacturers know that users want bigger and brighter viewfinders for APS-C, and I am sure they have done some development on this subject (maybe not in hardware). I can't imagine any of them will offer such a solution. I think in a couple of years EVFs will be good enough to replace optical VFs completely.

Last edited by RKKS08; 05-12-2013 at 09:17 AM.
05-12-2013, 09:02 AM   #944
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QuoteOriginally posted by RKKS08 Quote
I am not sure I understand this question, if it not ment as sarcasm. The mirror in a (D)SLR covers the full area of the sensor, and should send all the relevant light to the penta mirror or prism. For bigger sensors, the mirror can send more light.
Not sarcasm. I am prone to that but I use the "/sarc" tag when I do. I'm not an engineer, I just want a big bright view finder. If that cannot be done with APS-C, well I guess that is a reason to look for FF.
QuoteOriginally posted by asw66 Quote
Alternately, of course, mirrorless and liveview displays can be much larger than even FF viewfinders, but I don't think that's what you had in mind!
Nope. I like the k-01, more than I thought I would but the LCD is not a substitute for a good viewfinder. At least not yet. Maybe the technology will be there someday.
QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Your own wishlist is what a FF camera would offer you except the focus peaking (maybe). So it appears that you have talked yourself into wanting/needing a FF.
I only meant I'm not insisting on FF. I want what's on the list. If that is only available in FF then so be it. But if you can do it with an APS-C sensor, that's just fine with me. I want the RESULT, not any particular technology.
QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Not in the least! It's quite possible, it just never happens in the marketplace. A 35mm F/1.8 APS-C, together with the right prism, could provide the same size viewfinder with the same brightness as a FF 50mm F/2.8 lens or so. In practice it doesn't happen, though.
Well, the intricacies of the technology are beyond me. I just want what I want. If Pentax can give me the viewfinder of the 5D on an APS-C body, I'll give 'em a hug. If it takes a FF camera to make that all happen, well I have a good starter set of FF lenses and the cash saved so that's fine with me too.

I just wish Pentax would let us know what they are going to do. I'm making decisions on lenses and other gear based on no information from them. And I could make better decisions if they gave us some idea of what they are planning. I know they won't, and I understand why they shouldn't but it is still frustrating.

Handling the 5DmkII and the D800 last week was an experience. The first time I've really thought about my choice in brands and considered changing. But currently the k-5 has me covered, when I grow to the point of needing something more I'll decide what to buy based on what is available. If Pentax is there for me, fine. If not well, it's been fun but I'm more concerned about results than brand loyalty.
05-12-2013, 09:12 AM   #945
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I certainly did. Magnificent! Which is why I asked for a bigger brighter view finder in any new camera. Are you saying that this is only possible with a FF camera?
An APS-C viewfinder the same size as a FF viewfinder would require "magnification" on the order of about 200% (the figure would be higher but for the reduced magnification of existing FF viewfinders). The engineering inclined around here (Falconeye, care to chime in?) opine that such a viewfinder would make the camera as expensive as a FF camera. Ready to pay the same price for a less-than-half-size format?

There's no free lunch. You want the big viewfinder, you buy the cameras with the big sensor.
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