[macdaddy50]

IMHO (I am just a beginner), FF is truly needed for subject isolation and such. It can truly be used to the fullest extent by an advanced amateur. For majority of the general public (who happens to be the volume buyers), they just get it because of the Canikon marketing or what they read in the review sites. In US at least, most of the consumers are spoled and spend more on camera than on lenses. I mean, buying a FF with kit lens and maybe a cheap telezoom lens.

I don't think Pentax can play the same field as Canikon and try to come out winners. If they make a stellar APS-C that's truly different and appeals to the masses, I am sure they will sell a crop load of them. Plus, getting some presence in the key retail stores (just the major ones like sams club, costco, bestbuy etc.) will help a lot. People go to these stores for buying cameras (not target or walmart, usually). I don't think FF alone will the game changer for Pentax.

Like several have stated and of which I am a big believer, marketing presence will get Pentax back in people's minds. I think FF is more for the advanced shooter and is irrelevant to the average Joe walking into a retail probably don't know a whole lot about what they want other than they want this nice looking camera. With Pentax releasing all these new colors they are missing the most oportune time to get in front of the public and make a huge impression all at once. As someone said the average person doesn't go and look up reviews and such, they are gravitated to what is in front of them. If Pentax isn't there, they probably don't know anything about them. I just can't imagine why they don't make a major push now with all the colors and really get interest back to the main populace and they probably couldn't keep up w/demand. I'm planning on getting my first K-30 shortly. Why Pentax? Because I had an Asahi Pentax Spotmatic II many years ago. Great camera. I'm not sold on a Canikon at this time. I'm going to roll the dice and go w/my gut. But my neighbor probably has never heard of or knows anything about a Pentax let alone having ever seen one.

[urundai]

It's impossible to have any two cameras be 'the same level'. They're the same cost, though, with lens, so it makes sense to compare them on that reason alone. I like the feel of the K-5 better, sure. But the D600 has a metal frame. I'm 100% sure that the camera won't fail on me because the engineers chose to use some polymers here and some metals there.

But, that's the fallacy of any comparison, right? Just because they are the same cost, you are using it to prove your point. I can, for example, compare the K-5 ii to D800 or K-30 to D600 to prove that FF is far more expensive and APS-C is more attractive .

This discussion is relevant to me as I started with $2K budget. I paid about $1K for K-5 with 18-135. I am spending the rest of my 1K budget to get additional lenses that cover low light and tele zoom. I would spend $2.4 K either D600 or 6D for FF features and a single kit lens. All my lens needs would put me closer to $3.5K.

Even if Pentax comes up with a FF, APS-C is good enough for a lot of folks (including me) as I don't have any needs to take advantage of the FF advantage.

[Ash]

We keep revisiting the lack of 'need' for a FF camera, but it's not just about that. Firstly, as has been mentioned, the FF market is not insignificant. There is a large absolute number of FF camera sales, so there is a potential for Pentax to expand their client base beyond their current dichotomy of compact/APS-C consumers and MF professionals.

Secondly, FF is attractive to both enthusiasts and professionals alike for its added versatility and flexibility. It is more of a 'want' than a 'need' and that too is important for a company like Pentax to recognise.

[monochrome]

Small world, I went to creve coeur camera this past saturday to buy a monopod to use with my Sigma 120-400mm
They even have Pentax lenses in stock

Yes, CCC has stocked Pentax since their inception in the 70's. My grandmother bought my KX and 50/1.4 (college graduation present) from them and I troll their used lens cases regularly. The best store for used is Crestwood. I've even heard Co-op Pentax ads on Classical radio (K-7) and seen them on television around the holidays. We are truly blessed in St. Louis, central Missouri and central Illinois. John Carlson has lauded CCC as one of the few chains that does things right.

[monochrome]

Honestly, subject isolation is about positioning your subject in relation to the background and using the right lens.

At the right f/stop. That's where the extra stop helps - because the world doesn't always allow you to position your subject relative to the background .

[Pål Jensen]

We keep revisiting the lack of 'need' for a FF camera, but it's not just about that. Firstly, as has been mentioned, the FF market is not insignificant. There is a large absolute number of FF camera sales, so there is a potential for Pentax to expand their client base beyond their current dichotomy of compact/APS-C consumers and MF professionals.

Secondly, FF is attractive to both enthusiasts and professionals alike for its added versatility and flexibility. It is more of a 'want' than a 'need' and that too is important for a company like Pentax to recognise.

Actually FF has single digit marked share; about 6%. However, FF is situated in the upper price ranges where Nikon and Canon have a particular tight grip on the market image wise. Something Sony have experienced.

I disagree with your second point; APS is by far the most versatile and flexible digital format for DSLR's.

[Pål Jensen]

At the right f/stop. That's where the extra stop helps - because the world doesn't always allow you to position your subject relative to the background .

But on the other hand you loose one stop shutterspeed for the same DOF increasing the risk of subject blur and camera movement blur...
No free lunches...

[Aristophanes]

No free lunches...

Compared to the film days with regards t ISO, digital sensors are a free lunch.

We are spoiled...but complain...still.

[Aristophanes]

Definitely not the end of the world. You can achieve more isolation at the same f stop (due to the 1 stop advantage).

Visibly, manifestly discernible?

And which is the "best" wine again? I forget.

[ElJamoquio]

I paid about $1K for K-5 with 18-135. I am spending the rest of my 1K budget to get additional lenses that cover low light and tele zoom. I would spend $2.4 K either D600 or 6D for FF features and a single kit lens

What lenses are you planning on getting?

[Rondec]

At the right f/stop. That's where the extra stop helps - because the world doesn't always allow you to position your subject relative to the background .

I understand the difference, but one stop is just one stop. Photography skill is more important the format IMHO.

[urundai]

What lenses are you planning on getting?

I got the 50-300mm for the telephoto. I am looking at 28-75 F2.8 tamron as the general purpose / low light option. I am not much of a prime lens person, so looking at only zoom lenses.

[urundai]

Visibly, manifestly discernible?

And which is the "best" wine again? I forget.

Just like the camera, the wine in my hand is the "best" . At present, I can mess up more with my poor skills than what "FF" can help exploit in a photo.

[cali92rs]

But on the other hand you loose one stop shutterspeed for the same DOF increasing the risk of subject blur and camera movement blur...
No free lunches...

Except that you can also shoot at a higher ISO with less noise with a larger format...allowing the same shutter speed.

[Ash]

Actually FF has single digit marked share; about 6%

This is a malleable figure, particularly since the D600/6D - you will find this figure increasing.

I disagree with your second point; APS is by far the most versatile and flexible digital format for DSLR's

We can agree to disagree on that one. A further stop of DoF control cannot be emulated on APS-C, whereas focus stacking can solve any problem of insufficient DoF that FF has. Then you also have the SNR advantages that are at least theoretically available with larger formats.