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02-28-2008, 12:55 PM   #31
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Here is an "action" photographers take on the K20D. With the exception of the 21fps, most things apply to the K10D.

The 21fps example is great.


chasing light...: Pentax K20d mini review

Bob

02-28-2008, 01:05 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by SLC Flyfishing Quote
Wow, old photos of Ron Boone!

Being from Salt Lake City, Utah; I really like your photos! He's a bit of a legend around here and still does some Utah Jazz announcing!

Your photos prove that with skill you can get good action shots with any camera, without skill you need a Canon or Nikon

SLC
I have 1000s from the early 70 and have only scanned about 1500 so far.

Keeping on topic, I recall shooting the 1973 ABA all star game and of the 150 or so frames taken, 120 were keepers, printed and sold. It is all about capturing the peak of action along with composition with in the frame. If you saw the action in the view finder, you missed the shot.

Bob
02-28-2008, 02:07 PM   #33
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Bob...

A couple of comments on the link you posted:

1) Mark is sponsored by Pentax - just something to keep in mind.

2) One action shot was taken with a fish-eye (meaning he was in the water with the surfer); the other was taken with an FA*600. Neither proves anything about the focussing ability or keeper percentage of the camera, one way or the other.

3) a quote from the piece -"When shooting sports photography, sometimes what is sought after maybe lost in the in-between frames.". This was supposed to be a plug for the 21fps but actually goes against your position and shows the limitations of the relatively slow 3fps that Pentax users face if they want quality prints at decent sizes.

Again, though, as mentioned in another thread- higher fps is only important if the camera has the auto-focus abilities to match.

Pentax does not claim the K10 or 20 to be a fast-focussing, high fps sports/action camera, do they? I believe they are marketing the 20 more towards studio and landscape photographers, and it might well be a decent camera for those purposes.

Edit: Hopefully no-one believes I think it is impossible to get excellent action photographs using slow cameras, manual focus, etc. I just think, though, that having a camera/lens combo made for the job makes a lot of sense, and from my own experience, will help avoid the frustration of getting a so-so shot instead of a once-in-a-lifetime shot.

Last edited by Tom Lusk; 02-28-2008 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Addition for clarification
02-28-2008, 03:11 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by kipsta Quote
Hiya all,

My first post here.

Firstly let me say that I have read alot of the posts here already over the past few months and learnt heaps about using my K10d and Pentax in general and I really appreciate everything you guys and gals put in here.

I bought my K10d in order to photograph my wifey at her Veterans Athletics Championships - she is a 100m sprinter and long jumper. In fact she came 4th in the 100m at the recent world titles in Italy (nothing to do with my question, I'm just really proud of her...)

Anyway, I have always viewed the fps rate to be my cameras most important feature due to my wifey being quite fast on the track.

I had hoped that the K20d was going to give me at least 5 fps, but now we all know thats not going to happen.

So please tell me, I will listen to you, should I hang in for the next upgrade in the hope of a fps increase, or be happy with my 3 on my k10d or shock horror switch codes?

Or maybe the K20d is worth the upgrade for a sports/action photographer - are there new features in there that I may have missed on the spec sheet that I should rate higher than just fps speed ?
Veterans, isn’t that from 30 / 40 years and up ? Not professional athletes breaking world records, but still great results coming in.

In the film days, I was shooting with my Z-1P doing 4 fps, but I had to change film every 36 exposures; so you had to make sure to time, when to be firing the shots. Now I can shoot in JPEG till my 4GB card is empty. I was shooting a soccer match between Chelsea and Danish side Brondby. These millionaire athletes would be faster than your wife, but shooting angle is easier, than coming straight towards you.

The user Wanchese recently went for the Nikon D300, he still got the same amount of keepers compared to his Pentax :
Re: I want to stay with pentax: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
It is mostly about skill. Practice, practice, practice, and know you camera inside out.

With digital now, one is better off than some of the great professionals from film days. They couldn’t just shoot forever at high resolution, as possible with JPEG’s.

The K20 AF has been tweaked, but how have you gotten by with your K10 ? have you been satisfied with your results ? You could with the K20, select a portion of the track e.g. close to finish line, compose so little crop would be needed, and fire away at 20 FPS. The first digital cameras that were on the market for Pro’s, had 3-4 MP.

Edit : I’m sorry if it came out wrong.
I’m a student at Human Physiology, Exercise Sience; and I have the greatest respect for people that maintain an active lifestyle. Finishing 4th in the 100m at the recent world titles in Italy, along with having other disciplines; is a massive achievement. Women sports athletes are super cool, IMO.

If sports shooting is what you primarily use your camera for, I would consider the D200 / D300, to maintain proper weatherproofing. It will be the better choice of Pentax, and you’ll have pictures you can remember and look back upon for a long time. (Maybe you can still find the D200 new).
I plan to wait for the K5, but that doesn’t hit the stores for long time to come.
Best of luck with upcoming events, great to hear that you're thrilled about it. VR lenses from Nikon will also be faster than the Pentax ones.


Duplo/ Thomas, stated about the D3 that he uses, (besides his K10) :
"The downside of an advanced AF system like the new Nikon is that you need to tune it right for it to be precise. It takes a lot of tests and real world use to get it to work right for you. It is almost flawless.

The K10D, while nowhere near it in speed or trackability is simpler in use and with in its working range harder to make screw up.

One might say that the price to pay for advanced AF is that it also requires more from the one using it.
There really is no free lunch... "


Sport and action is an area that Pentax was never strong in. Market leaders C&N will be the better choice here.
[English is not my first language, so sometimes things come out differently than intended]


Last edited by Jonson PL; 02-28-2008 at 04:45 PM.
02-28-2008, 03:38 PM   #35
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Uh...

"These millionaire athletes are a lot faster than your wife."

I'm sure some of them are faster, but I doubt any of them are a lot faster...
02-28-2008, 04:23 PM   #36
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Let me apologize

QuoteOriginally posted by kipsta Quote
Hiya all,

My first post here.

So please tell me, I will listen to you, should I hang in for the next upgrade in the hope of a fps increase, or be happy with my 3 on my k10d or shock horror switch codes?

Thanks in advance for your guidance,
Kip,
First, let me welcome you to the forum. Secondly, congratulations to your wife on her success. Last but not least let me apologize for some of the pompous responses you received from other posters. I should apologize also for JonsonPL's response but can't because it was downright rude and insulting, grow up JonsonPL!!!

Some of the posters suggested that if you learned how to use your equipment properly you wouldn't have a need for anything better. They regaled you with stories about how well they did in the old days with much worse equipment. They remind me of my father telling me how he had to walk to school 5 miles each way, both uphill.

This thread is plagued by Pentax fanboys that are busy defending their brand rather than offering help and truthful answers for a fellow hobbyist that is asking for assistance. The truth is the K10D/K20D are not the best solutions for the type of shooting you need to do. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to capture a moment of family history. Spend what you can afford to preserve it.

Luck to your wife,
Ken
02-28-2008, 04:29 PM   #37
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If he didn't want to take any risks he would hire an experienced photographer...

The only thing I can say is that going to a faster Nikon/Cnon can only *improve* your shots, not *fix* them. You might get lucky with machine gunning, but if you can't take some good shots with the K10 no camera will do miracles.

That said, get a D300 with the 8fps grip. You'll be happy.
02-28-2008, 04:55 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I think the size and weight between 40D and K10D/20D are just very similar.
Wrong - 40D is 35g heavier and 4mmx7mmx3.5mm bigger. Not insignificant I feel.

IF you can hang out for the next Pentax iteration then do so. Otherwise get the Canon. I am still tossing up which to upgrade to, waiting until I can get them side by side. The biggie for me to stay Pentax is the in-camera stabilisation, plus the few lenses that I already have and don't want to have to replace.

02-28-2008, 05:16 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Wow, after reading this thread there are all of a sudden Canon admirers coming out of the woodwork. This on a Pentax forum...
I wouldn't say admirers, but at least we show class and respect here on this forum, not to mention practicality.

Should we only be fawning over Pentax in this forum? I probably missed that detail in the forum rules and guidelines.

You have this guy who wants to take photos of his wife in a once-in-a-lifetime sports event. Why shouldn't we advise him to go with a system that has a better chance of getting keepers? He can always go back to Pentax later on once they address this issue (AF-C and FPS count).
02-28-2008, 05:27 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Arpe Quote
The biggie for me to stay Pentax is the in-camera stabilisation, plus the few lenses that I already have and don't want to have to replace.
Well, we're pretty much in the same boat.

Sony doesn't feel good to me, and I'm not that sold on Olympus should they try to tack on more MPs (which is inevitable) later on.

I don't shoot much action for now, but it would be nice to get a Pentax camera capable of hanging around with 40Ds and D300s later on.
02-28-2008, 05:41 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Some of the posters suggested that if you learned how to use your equipment properly you wouldn't have a need for anything better. They regaled you with stories about how well they did in the old days with much worse equipment. They remind me of my father telling me how he had to walk to school 5 miles each way, both uphill.

This thread is plagued by Pentax fanboys that are busy defending their brand rather than offering help and truthful answers for a fellow hobbyist that is asking for assistance. The truth is the K10D/K20D are not the best solutions for the type of shooting you need to do. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to capture a moment of family history. Spend what you can afford to preserve it.
The scary thing is that I am now telling my kids about my days walking to school. It was only three miles, but there was deep snow and ice pretty much every day of the year. Plus it was uphill in both directions.

But back to the topic at hand ...

Eadweard Muybridge shot his famous horse motion photographs shown in Scientific American in 1878 using a series of wet plate collodion process cameras and an electromagnetic trigger system. Later he moved to those new-fangled dry plates (which had the advantage that the plates didn't need to be developed before they dried). No auto-focus, no auto-exposure, no TTL viewfinder, no auto-aperture, no roll-film! So who needs some fancy-schmanzy digital computeried camera?

No, you don't need the best auto-focus and the fastest frame rates to get the job done. But there is also no reason NOT to avail yourself of the equipment with the most automation support when shooting action photography. Buy the best you can afford that will help you get the job done. If your Pentax K10D isn't getting the job done, then try something else. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
02-28-2008, 06:05 PM   #42
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I have used both Nikon and Canon (D200 and 5D) and they both will outshoot my K10D all day long when it comes to focus speed and it isn't even close. Now the images I get are just as good as theirs, even the 5D and I rarely miss shots, even flying birds, but it is much more difficult for me than it is for them.

Get what works for you and if you need faster focus than the K10D has to offer then go with Canon or Nikon.

It is your photography not anyone elses, so do what works for you!

Tom
02-28-2008, 06:18 PM   #43
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I guess i'll have to say amen to regken and his thoughtful comments. It seems sad to me that Pentax hasn't seen fit to keep up with some of the competitors with up dated auto focus. I hate it when photographers start out with Pentax and as their skill grows or interests in other types of photography forces them to change brands. Pentax K1000 has trained more beginners than any other camera brand and look how many of them moved to other brands for better features. The Pentax LX was a great pro camera and Pentax let it die on the vine. Pentax has a great start in the digital age right now with excellent image quality so I hope they follow through with the improvments that EVERYONE needs.
02-28-2008, 07:00 PM   #44
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Let me preface by saying that for most things, I loved my Pentax K10D. I also waited faithfully for the K20D in hopes that the upgrades in the cam would be useful for what I enjoy doing most which is photographing wildlife, esp birds in flight. I used my 10D and a Sigma 50-500mm lens. Unfortunately, good long glass from Pentax is tough to get so I found my camera coupled with my lens to be pretty slow. I decided to buy a reconditioned 30D for less than half what they sold for before the 40D and I am glad thus far that I did. The AF is exceptionally fast. With a fast AF, 3fps is sufficient for many applications. Unfortunately on the K10D it wasn't for me.

Further, I found that good sharp lenses are more accessible at my price point.

Having said this, I will miss the build quality of the K10D and also the color rendition. I find I have to work harder to get punchy colors in post processing.

Everyone can scream and jump up and down but there are some things Pentax does well and some things it does not. Brand loyalty will not be the cause of my missing good in-flight shots.

Perhaps if you have time to wait, the next line will be aimed toward sports minded shooters, but the 10 and 20D's are not. I am sure if I had access to an FA 600mm with the 10D, I'd feel differently, but I have to be realistic about what I can afford.

Good luck. Pentax makes fine cameras. But so do the other manufacturers and we shouldn't forget that either. Unless you are sponsored, why would brand loyalty be so important as to deny the obvious. Maybe I am a poor photographer in wanting more features aimed at getting the results I want...oh well. I'll be a happier poor photographer.
02-28-2008, 07:12 PM   #45
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I kinda figured that's what you might be up to Paul. With the big sell off. No question there are other and for some, better choices for certain applicaions. I hope the new system treats you well and don't be a stranger! Pentax or any other brand can't be everything for everyone.
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