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03-01-2008, 10:38 AM   #16
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???

Chris - was your buffer full between shots 6 & 7 of the woman walking past the pole?

I'm trying to figure out the timing on those shots.

Thanks,

Tom

03-01-2008, 10:39 AM   #17
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hey chris

thanks for all of those test shots... looks like the K20D is going to be a nice combinatation with all of these new lenses!! Looks like I might have to sell one of my K10D, and maybe some extra lenses so I can make a couple of new purchases!
03-01-2008, 11:09 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
Chris - was your buffer full between shots 6 & 7 of the woman walking past the pole?

I'm trying to figure out the timing on those shots.

Thanks,

Tom
No it focused at the pole and I didn't want a pole shot so I waited for her to go right past the pole to start again.
03-01-2008, 11:30 AM   #19
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Chris, thanks for taking the time to do these tests

03-01-2008, 12:01 PM   #20
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AF

Hey Chris,

Test much appreciated. Now imagine trying to do the same thing with a hockey player skating towards you at a speed 2 or 3 times your lab-runner (plus being limited to a SS of 1/250th or less, b/c you're already at ISO 1250 or 1600) and you'll know why those of us who use our K10Ds for sports were hoping for a completely "new" AF system, not simply an upgrade.

That said your shots are noteworthy. How noteworthy, we'll not know until (as an earlier poster asked) you can duplicate same test with your K10D. I'm gonna guess, given my experience getting similar, usable, "quality" shots with my K10D, that its performance will not be far off from the K10D, if at all.

Again, thanks for taking the time to try this out and post for all of us to compare.

Rob
03-01-2008, 12:13 PM   #21
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Here's a sample of what I mean about "missing". And this sequence is off the draw, so he's not even at a full speed. Puck is dropped, Cundari here loads up for a beauty slap shot and all I get is board advertising. K10D, FA*200mm, 1/250th, F3.2.

*This doesn't happen all the time, obviously, but too often for my liking.

Last edited by SouthShoreRob; 02-09-2009 at 02:51 PM.
03-01-2008, 12:56 PM   #22
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During the day usually the k10d did reasonably well, but the number of out of focus ones was still rather high: about 4 out of 10 was more than usual. In your case there is less light and you have to up the iso to keep up the speed (smilar to my situation). The k20d looks like it can do this.
But if you did not crop these (meaning center is center) and you used center focus, this may not only be the AF speed failing. It may also be the size of AF center area, with a preference to the highest contrast within the area.

lock
03-01-2008, 01:11 PM   #23
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During the day usually the k10d did reasonably well, but the number of out of focus ones was still rather high: about 4 out of 10 was more than usual. In your case there is less light and you have to up the iso to keep up the speed (smilar to my situation). The k20d looks like it can do this.
But if you did not crop these (meaning center is center) and you used center focus, this may not only be the AF speed failing. It may also be the size of AF center area, with a preference to the highest contrast within the area.

lock

03-01-2008, 01:55 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by SouthShoreRob Quote
Here's a sample of what I mean about "missing". And this sequence is off the draw, so he's not even at a full speed. Puck is dropped, Cundari here loads up for a beauty slap shot and all I get is board advertising. K10D, FA*200mm, 1/250th, F3.2.

*This doesn't happen all the time, obviously, but too often for my liking.
Have you notized that batteries has quite an impact to focusing speed in these situations? When gauge shows half, speed is already reduced remarkably...

I do a lot similar shooting and my K10D and Sigma 70-200/2.8 EX DG DF have done it actually very well. In the situation you have here I would be very surpriced if I get similar (unsharp) results as you have got. The most difficult task is to keep the focusing point in the player and not let it slip to board. Are you sure that the F-point was in the player and not in the board behind him? Focusing point is actually quite a large, how big this player was in the screen? this picture you attached is obviously a crop?

You have pressed the shutter button and let the serial shooting decide the moment of actual shoot. I do it little bit differently. I am not interested in any pictures before the very moment I want to shoot, continuous focusing holds the correct focus so that I can shoot at the moment I precisely want. Even with the speed of 5 /sec the best moment is very often between the frames, and with the speed of 3 /sec. it is almouts hopeless.

Usually I do not take more than one picture from one act. So if the AF-C doesnt hold the focus correctly I will lost this only picture. But it happens very seldom. Out of focus is rare cause of rejecting, mostly composition or the moment has not been optimal.

Unfortunately I have not been able to test my new K20D this weekend. This flu is enough bad even without cold Icehockey halls ;-)




Last edited by Harald; 03-01-2008 at 03:29 PM.
03-01-2008, 02:23 PM   #25
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That looks to be more of a back focusing issue. Shooting at f3.2 will expose a camera with back/front focusing issues. I first noticed my camera back focusing when I was shooting during the day. I was shooting at f8.0 so the problem wasnt so noticeable, only once in a while did it completely miss focus. But, even when in focus, I noticed alot of the background was in focus, and not much foreground. Recently I went to a hockey game and got shots exactly as yours above. I was shooting at wide appertures. Thats when I decided to do a focus test with a chart. Sure enough, my k10d back focused with every af lens I had. It's at Pentax being adjusted right now. AF speed has never been an issue for me, the issue has been the accuracy of the AF. I've shot everything from pheasant hunting, horse shows, and local sports.
03-01-2008, 04:30 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Harald Quote
Have you notized that batteries has quite an impact to focusing speed in these situations? When gauge shows half, speed is already reduced remarkably...
Yes, I have, and while I try to keep the batteries up, that's not always possible or practical when there are often games Thursday, then Sunday, a wife and two kids in between, lol.

QuoteOriginally posted by Harald Quote
I do a lot similar shooting and my K10D and Sigma 70-200/2.8 EX DG DF have done it actually very well. In the situation you have here I would be very surpriced if I get similar (unsharp) results as you have got. The most difficult task is to keep the focusing point in the player and not let it slip to board. Are you sure that the F-point was in the player and not in the board behind him? Focusing point is actually quite a large, how big this player was in the screen? this picture you attached is obviously a crop?
No, these are not crops, just resized from original to fit the web better. This player is 5'9 inches tall and a good 175 lbs. I am sitting in the stands, higher than the glass, about eight rows up. In distance, the player is roughly 10-15 metres away from me.

QuoteOriginally posted by Harald Quote
You have pressed the shutter button and let the serial shooting decide the moment of actual shoot. I do it little bit differently. I am not interested in any pictures before the very moment I want to shoot, continuous focusing holds the correct focus so that I can shoot at the moment I precisely want. Even with the speed of 5 /sec the best moment is very often between the frames, and with the speed of 3 /sec. it is almouts hopeless.

Usually I do not take more than one picture from one act. So if the AF-C doesnt hold the focus correctly I will lost this only picture. But it happens very seldom. Out of focus is rare cause of rejecting, mostly composition or the moment has not been optimal.
What you are describing, if I am interpreting correctly, is AF-C but not really using it. You're searching in AF-C, but really only depressing the shutter for a shot at a time. For me, that's a technique I use most of the game. But, in spots such as these, I do lay on the trigger and continuous shoot a good three, four, five frames in a row.
03-01-2008, 04:38 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by reknelb Quote
That looks to be more of a back focusing issue. Shooting at f3.2 will expose a camera with back/front focusing issues. I first noticed my camera back focusing when I was shooting during the day. I was shooting at f8.0 so the problem wasnt so noticeable, only once in a while did it completely miss focus. But, even when in focus, I noticed alot of the background was in focus, and not much foreground. Recently I went to a hockey game and got shots exactly as yours above. I was shooting at wide appertures. Thats when I decided to do a focus test with a chart. Sure enough, my k10d back focused with every af lens I had. It's at Pentax being adjusted right now. AF speed has never been an issue for me, the issue has been the accuracy of the AF. I've shot everything from pheasant hunting, horse shows, and local sports.
You could be absolutely right, but if such is the case, I'll be rather pissed that my thousand dollar body and 1200 dollar lens can't properly communicate with one another both at factory specs. How much is that costing, how long will it be away, and what is Pentax's official stance on such scenarios?

For the record, however, it could still be the AF. Here's the same player later in the same shift bursting up the ice. Again, I laid on the trigger and this time, 3 hits and one half hit. K10D, FA*200mm, no PP at all except resize for web.

See below...

Last edited by SouthShoreRob; 02-09-2009 at 02:51 PM.
03-01-2008, 07:18 PM   #28
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Thanks for your test, Chris.
It looks like the AF is improved on K20D indeed.
AlthoughI am not gonna get K20D at this time, it's still a great news to me because it means its successor would be at least as good as K20D.
03-02-2008, 12:56 AM   #29
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Thanx Chris. That's great news and wonderful to see. I hope the DA* 60-250 f/4 is cut from the same cloth, good quality control, and great off wide open (since starting from f/4). After much deliberation me thinks that'll be the DA* lens for me; the K20D will buy the extra stop of speed w/its superior ISO ablity over using it w/a/my K10D.
03-02-2008, 02:06 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by SouthShoreRob Quote
Yes, I have, and while I try to keep the batteries up, that's not always possible or practical when there are often games Thursday, then Sunday, a wife and two kids in between, lol.
Do you have several batteries? if not, buy one. I have 3. Just put one to charger in the morning, it dont have to be empty. These li-ion batteries dont mind if they are not empty before charging.

QuoteOriginally posted by SouthShoreRob Quote
No, these are not crops, just resized from original to fit the web better. This player is 5'9 inches tall and a good 175 lbs. I am sitting in the stands, higher than the glass, about eight rows up. In distance, the player is roughly 10-15 metres away from me.
Quite similar conditions than I have, sometimes I go to the board gate (for zamboni) and shoot there.

QuoteOriginally posted by SouthShoreRob Quote
What you are describing, if I am interpreting correctly, is AF-C but not really using it. You're searching in AF-C, but really only depressing the shutter for a shot at a time. For me, that's a technique I use most of the game. But, in spots such as these, I do lay on the trigger and continuous shoot a good three, four, five frames in a row.
Not really using it? now I didnt get it? I use the AF-C for tracking focusing so that focus is correct in the very moment I want to shoot. If you use AF-S, you have to wait until the actual focusing process is done and you will sure be late. No existing focus system from any brand is fast enough for catching the moment without anticipating it with AF-C.
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