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03-12-2013, 05:03 AM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by jackassp Quote
And everyone is forgetting that Ricoh / Pentax will need some new digital optimised FF lenses for the new FF body (likely late 2014), unless they strike a deal with Tokina or Tamron or Sigma.
It's Pentax Ricoh, and they can handle this issue by themselves.
Tamron has nothing to offer at high-end, a partnership with Sigma is out of the question IMO. The renewal of the partnership with Tokina, well, that means most designs will be Pentax - it's a method of sharing R&D costs, and less to gain access to new lenses.

The HD DA could be FF-compatible, so far there is no indication that it isn't (Pentaxforums' blunder does a lot of damage, great job folks!)

QuoteOriginally posted by jackassp Quote
I predict 2014, or even 2015 for FF, and by then it will probably be all too late.
Too late, why? What major change do you expect to happen?

03-12-2013, 05:09 AM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by jackassp Quote
I predict 2014, or even 2015 for FF, and by then it will probably be all too late.
Indeed! In that case, I'll go for a 5DMKIII as upgrade to my MKI and a 24-105/F4 for a weathersealed travel combination...
03-12-2013, 05:10 AM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by jackassp Quote
Excuse me? Using the words "K5-IIs" and "pro-body" in the same sentence is a bit of an oxymoron isn't it?

And everyone is forgetting that Ricoh / Pentax will need some new digital optimised FF lenses for the new FF body (likely late 2014), unless they strike a deal with Tokina or Tamron or Sigma.

Tokina has a very nice 16-28mm UWA FF lens, but is it top Pentax quality?.
Tamron has an acceptably good 24-70mm 2.8 zoom, but it definitely isn't top Pentax quality.
Sigma was a decent 70-200mm 2.8 zoom, that probably is good enough for Pentax FF.
The DA* 300mm is OK, the DA 560 isn't good enough for FF.
This leaves the FA 35/2 - good enough, FA50/1.4 - barely good enough, FA 31 and FA43 and FA 77 - all good enough.
Sigma 15/2.8 EX DG is good enough fisheye.
Sigma 85/1.4 also good enough
Sigma 24-70/2.8 EX DG HSM is probably good enough.
Tamron 90 SP macro is good enough.

But you can't introduce an FF camera body alone, you need some branded lenses, support, and at the very lest an inexpensive kit "normal" and "tele" zoom, and I just can't see them anywhere, yet.

I predict 2014, or even 2015 for FF, and by then it will probably be all too late.
As has been pointed out elsewhere, this still leaves Pentax with a problem: long lenses for sports and wildlife.

Reason: anyone who wants APS-C for its reach and FF for its quality can get both with one system on Canon or Nikon because they (and third parties) have plenty of long lenses. You'll need extra bodies of course but that might be all. So why would someone split their gear into two systems by buying a Pentax FF while being obliged to stay with Canonikon for the long-reach stuff because Pentax doesn't have the long APS-C lenses (nor, still, teleconverters)? I know there is now the DA 560mm but, really, look at the whole ranges from the different brands including Sigma.

This is more important than it sounds because on questions like this turns the market for any Pentax FF: appealing mainly to existing Pentax-owners means modest sales and a certain financial fail, whereas appealing to a much broader, non-Pentax market means much better sales but how on earth do you do it given what's at present in the Pentax catalogue and roadmap if you simply produce another me-too FF DSLR? At the moment, Canon and Nikon have it absolutely sewn up between them. Imho, all this talk of cobbling together a Pentax FF lens portfolio from here, there and Ebay is a disaster in the making when it comes to selling yourself to Jo Public and some hard-faced retailers. Pentax need to find a much cannier way of approaching FF than this or stay well away, I think.

Last edited by mecrox; 03-12-2013 at 05:53 AM.
03-12-2013, 05:11 AM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by jackassp Quote
Sigma 24-70/2.8 EX DG HSM is probably good enough
Better than any existing Pentax branded zoom lens

03-12-2013, 05:12 AM   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well thinking about it and the past history off Pentax reusing parts in camera's. They have currently PRIME II (16mp 14-bit processing) and PRIME M (16mp 12-bit processing). It is probably the bit-rate that makes the difference.

So to this there will be one new processing engine (and following electronis) made. This would be for 24mp 14-bit processing (for K-3, K-1 and 645D IIs).
- K-300 entry level, and that makes it 16mp 12-bit (PRIME M)
- K-30 mid level, 16mp 12-bit (PRIME M)
- K-5 II(s) midlevel in probody, 16mp 14-bit (PRIME II)
- K-3(s) toplevel, and that makes it 24mp 14-bit (PRIME III)
- later on K-1(s) FF 24mp with 14-bit (PRIME III)
- 645D, 40mp 14-bit (PRIME II)
- later on 645D II(s) 60mp 14-bit (PRIME III)

In that scenario K-5 II(s) will migrate to midlevel in pro-body and can be around for another year. In this way Pentax can create a full line off camera's produced in batches.

Cheapest scenario for all electronics inside the camera.
If there is a new entry level DSLR, it could very well come with a pentamirror and one control wheel. Likely uses the sensor currently used in the K-30. A new K-30 may just be the same camera as the current but with a new sensor.
03-12-2013, 05:29 AM - 1 Like   #171
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It's Pentax Ricoh, and they can handle this issue by themselves.

Too late, why? What major change do you expect to happen?
To stay in the DSLR business, Pentax/Ricoh have to remain profitable, and you know something, if every member of this forum bought the new FF camera and 2-3 or even more lenses, but hardly anyone else, then Pentax / Ricoh would be out of business faster than you could say "DA* limited".

All this in a climate where Nikon and Canon aren't making much profit from their DSLR sales either.

One more bad decision by the Pentax branch could spell the end for them very quickly.

I'm a Pentax fanboy like the rest of you, I have 10s of thousands of $$$$ invested in Pentax gear, spanning nearly 40 years, but you don't have to be an oracle to read the signs.
03-12-2013, 05:37 AM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
Better than any existing Pentax branded zoom lens
I know, I almost have every one of the lenses I mentioned (except the DA 300 and DA 560).
I want a Pentax FF so so badly. Like Wired, I also have a Nikon D600, and some Nikkor primes, but still mostly shoot Pentax, because of ergonomics, build quality, and I know the Pentax quirks inside-out.
03-12-2013, 06:02 AM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
I do agree with you, and I think it doesn't make sense in most cases. I talked to a fellow who has the D800, a substantial investment in itself, who then has to do some serious upgrades in computer hardware to deal with the huge files. In most cases it doesn't matter, although I look forward to a 24 mpx sensor since I crop substantially.
I've just done my computer upgrade over Christmas in anticipation of moving on from the 12 mpx K-x, so keenly waiting to see what is released.

03-12-2013, 06:06 AM - 3 Likes   #174
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Pentax can do no right.
03-12-2013, 06:10 AM - 1 Like   #175
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QuoteQuote:
But you can't introduce an FF camera body alone, you need some branded lenses,
If a FF body is in development it is highly likely that some FF lenses are developed a long side with it to be announced together with the FF body. I often hear the argument that no such lenses are on the road map and therefor that cannot happen. Thats just silly. Pentax would never announce "we are making FF lenses" as long as they cannot anounce "we are making a FF body"
03-12-2013, 06:10 AM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Pentax can do no right.
Pentax could bring out a 1DX and D4 killer pro level FF with a complete set of lenses and we would all still moan.... ha ha ha ha
03-12-2013, 06:14 AM - 1 Like   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by GordonZA Quote
Pentax could bring out a 1DX and D4 killer pro level FF with a complete set of lenses and we would all still moan.... ha ha ha ha
Yes, but it would be orgiastic moaning.
03-12-2013, 06:23 AM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by GordonZA Quote
Pentax could bring out a 1DX and D4 killer pro level FF with a complete set of lenses and we would all still moan.... ha ha ha ha

I think the source of the moaning is that we see what could be, ie a "killer pro level FF" with Pentax ergonomics and the FA limiteds....but all we have available now is a APS-C with 11 point AF.
What the Pentax apologists are extolling is what maybe be available in the future.
I like Pentax but I am not going to shell out money to a non-existent product.

yea i know i know, "I will be happy, be patient, wait"...meanwhile the "killer pro level FF" is available right this second for those who want it.
So, if you have the money, the choice is wait for something that could be great, or buy something now that is known to be great.
03-12-2013, 06:44 AM   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
As has been pointed out elsewhere, this still leaves Pentax with a problem: long lenses for sports and wildlife.
Sports is not the typical Pentax domain, but they're working on the long lenses issue (the 560, the tele zoom on the roadmap and who knows what follows).
Sigma can fits some gaps.
QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
This is more important than it sounds because on questions like this turns the market for any Pentax FF: appealing mainly to existing Pentax-owners means modest sales and a certain financial fail, whereas appealing to a much broader, non-Pentax market means much better sales but how on earth do you do it given what's at present in the Pentax catalogue and roadmap if you simply produce another me-too FF DSLR?
I can easily spot two errors in this logic:
1. the DSLR market Pentax is currently competing in is the broadest.
2. Pentax can make products appealing both to the existing, and new customers; it's not like those are exclusive.
And a 3rd: competing in another market won't be easier, as you're implying.

QuoteOriginally posted by jackassp Quote
To stay in the DSLR business, Pentax/Ricoh have to remain profitable, and you know something, if every member of this forum bought the new FF camera and 2-3 or even more lenses, but hardly anyone else, then Pentax / Ricoh would be out of business faster than you could say "DA* limited".

All this in a climate where Nikon and Canon aren't making much profit from their DSLR sales either.

One more bad decision by the Pentax branch could spell the end for them very quickly.
Fortunately, Pentax' business plan don't exclusively rely on Pentaxforums

AFAIK, Canon and Nikon are making solid profits. Do you have data proving the contrary?

QuoteOriginally posted by jackassp Quote
I'm a Pentax fanboy like the rest of you
Are you trying to insult us?
03-12-2013, 06:55 AM   #180
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We recently saw that Nikon profits had fallen from 640 million to 480 million... the analysts may be freaking out, but 480 million is still 480 million. Does anyone actually know how much money Pentax makes?
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