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03-12-2013, 03:48 PM - 1 Like   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
They will compete with an enthusiast-level FF camera in the same way as with an APS-C one; I can't understand why anyone would believe they're different things. It's just a higher market positioning/price point; otherwise, everything's exactly the same.
Yes, there are issues which needs to be addressed (e.g. lenses); but that's something they've done in the past and can be done again.
Well I did give the lenses a good thinking. Pentax can also make a very logical step in creating a system with a FF model and just a few lenses. While everyone is talking about the lenses Pentax can actually descide to only deliver lenses in the range 20-135mm. It needs a good "kitlens" to go with the camera (20-80 or 24-100mm or so) a hi-class zoom (24-85mm/f2.8 or so) and a few primes (for wich the FA Ltd are there 31mm/43mm/77mm, and DA*55mm, 200mm and 300mm are on the market, so with one wide-angle 24mm/f2.0, 85mm/f1.4 and 135mm/f2.0) you really don't need more to have a complete system. Top off the line APS-C for wildlife and birding. With a system like that almost everyone can work with that and sportsphotographers is not a target.

03-12-2013, 03:50 PM - 1 Like   #212
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Based on the new rebates offered for buying a K-5II and an FA limited lens ($250 off per Limited lens if purchased at the same time as a K-5II and a similar offer when buying a 645D) I would suggest that a new Medium format camera and a Full Frame DSLR are about to be released. The other possible reason for promoting the FA LTD lenses so aggressively could be that they are about to be discontinued but I think it will more be about getting FF lenses into as many hands as possible so they can sell the new FF camera.
03-12-2013, 03:58 PM   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
The other possible reason for promoting the FA LTD lenses so aggressively could be that they are about to be discontinued but I think it will more be about getting FF lenses into as many hands as possible so they can sell the new FF camera.
It may be both if they plan to re-release the 3 amigos as new DFA LTD lenses.
03-12-2013, 03:59 PM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
I think the FF response now is probably appropriate because Canikon have pushed it and the cost down to "enthusiast" levels...
That's exactly the point, that Pentax needs the high-end enthusiast market.

Ron, let's think a little bit in perspective. Pentax can indeed start the FF DSLR system with only few lenses (in addition to what they already have, that would be 10+ if I'm not mistaken - so they could start with about a dozen FF lenses), but they also can launch at least 4 K-mount lenses per year. If 2 or 3 of them will be FF...
Olympus, Panasonic, Sony, Samsung recently started new systems from scratch; Pentax doesn't have to.

03-12-2013, 03:59 PM   #215
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Based on the new rebates offered for buying a K-5II and an FA limited lens ($250 off per Limited lens if purchased at the same time as a K-5II and a similar offer when buying a 645D) I would suggest that a new Medium format camera and a Full Frame DSLR are about to be released. The other possible reason for promoting the FA LTD lenses so aggressively could be that they are about to be discontinued but I think it will more be about getting FF lenses into as many hands as possible so they can sell the new FF camera.
I'm not sure about that. Pentax offers something that creates loyal customers:

- 645D with 25mm, 55mm and 90mm costs around $ 20k, so those customers will stay around for a while.
- K-5 IIs with all three FA Ltd lenses (31mm, 43mm and 77mm) costs close to $ 3k, so those customers will stay around for a while.

This could be about attracting a new customerbase, one that is not all about being cheap, but want to invest in a new Pentax system for their photo-bussiness.

I started out in 2009 with K20D, DA*16-50mm, DA*50-135mm, a flash, a studioset, an A3+ photoprinter and tripod. So I invested in good stuff and that is what I don't see a lot in Pentax the last years, while it is good for the brand to have more off them aboard.
03-12-2013, 04:00 PM - 1 Like   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Based on the new rebates offered for buying a K-5II and an FA limited lens ($250 off per Limited lens if purchased at the same time as a K-5II and a similar offer when buying a 645D) I would suggest that a new Medium format camera and a Full Frame DSLR are about to be released.
Or it could be a case of shifting stock of the K-5II and 645D because they are about to be superceded.
03-12-2013, 04:03 PM   #217
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All of those suggestions are possibles.. we will have to wait and see.
03-12-2013, 04:05 PM   #218
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
we will have to wait and see.
I think being a Pentax user is the most stressful compared to other brands, because we are constantly "waiting and seeing" (for FF).

03-12-2013, 04:10 PM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by NickLarsson Quote
I think being a Pentax user is the most stressful compared to other brands, because we are constantly "waiting and seeing" (for FF).
No doubt that's true for many of you; they will only catch my eye if the FF model is somehow K-5 size, and the SR alone makes that unlikely.
I will see but I won't wait: I have too many Pentax cameras to wear out already!
03-12-2013, 04:19 PM   #220
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QuoteOriginally posted by joe.penn Quote
Just check out the new lineup and it will show different - case in point: the Sigma 120~300 2.8 [must have sports lens], a huge seller from Sigma, no K-Mount. Hard to make a profit with an extremely slim market - the manufacturers know how many lenses they will sell based on the market share of the brand. Pentax has what a 3% market share and that is probably stretching it now, for players like Sigma and Tokina it would make no sense in tooling machines and concentrating resources on products that they will only sell a small handful of. It all starts with Pentax and their ability to compete in the market and unfortunately they haven't showed much in a couple of years now - hopefully though they will be able to come out with something that will compete with the D7100...
Pardon my ignorance, but just how much retooling is needed to put a Pentax mount on an already exisiting Sigma lens? Is it really that involved and expensive?
03-12-2013, 04:22 PM   #221
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Ron, let's think a little bit in perspective. Pentax can indeed start the FF DSLR system with only few lenses (in addition to what they already have, that would be 10+ if I'm not mistaken - so they could start with about a dozen FF lenses)
But for a start you only need a few new lenses. A kitlens, a hi-end zoom and a portraitlens. That is something that can be done in a relative short time.

The most difficult parts in a new FF:
- new SR system, that is probably costing big time in developement and money (for a relative small number off body's sold, compared to aps-c)
- new AF-system, since the new FF body probably will be around for at least three years.
- new electronics lay-out with new processor (shared with new aps-c camera) and firmware, also expensive, because you probably have to hire people from outside to do this job, and again a relative small number off production items.

I do see this coming this year, since the 24mp sensor is around and maybe available for Pentax.



P.S. I'm still in favor for an APS-H camera!
03-12-2013, 04:44 PM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by jimr-pdx Quote
No doubt that's true for many of you; they will only catch my eye if the FF model is somehow K-5 size, and the SR alone makes that unlikely.
I will see but I won't wait: I have too many Pentax cameras to wear out already!
same here, don't care much about other brands unless of course they also come in similar k-5 body and ergonomics.

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
- new SR system, that is probably costing big time in developement and money (for a relative small number off body's sold, compared to aps-c)
true.. expect to sell a lot less, therefore cost of development would be quite high initially; therefore, until the economics of developing SR for FF sensor becomes more favorable, not expecting FF soon.

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
- new AF-system, since the new FF body probably will be around for at least three years.
to most people, we are still not there yet although improvement has be made in the last few releases such as k-5II/s, people will likely judge it again after k-3 releases.

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
- new electronics lay-out with new processor (shared with new aps-c camera) and firmware, also expensive, because you probably have to hire people from outside to do this job, and again a relative small number off production items.
agree that this is a challenge too...firmware and software.

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
P.S. I'm still in favor for an APS-H camera!
Where do you see Pentax getting APS-H sensor from?
03-12-2013, 04:44 PM   #223
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
But for a start you only need a few new lenses. A kitlens, a hi-end zoom and a portraitlens. That is something that can be done in a relative short time.

The most difficult parts in a new FF:
- new SR system, that is probably costing big time in developement and money (for a relative small number off body's sold, compared to aps-c)
- new AF-system, since the new FF body probably will be around for at least three years.
- new electronics lay-out with new processor (shared with new aps-c camera) and firmware, also expensive, because you probably have to hire people from outside to do this job, and again a relative small number off production items.

I do see this coming this year, since the 24mp sensor is around and maybe available for Pentax.



P.S. I'm still in favor for an APS-H camera!
Well, since we're all just guessing, here's my theory that weaves together all of the discussions on this thread so far:

First, the 3 Fa limiteds. Pentax is blowing them out because they are redoing the lenses with the new HD coatings to minimize the purple fringing that seems to be the only downside of these lenses (and they will perhaps add the DC motor as well).
Pentax is about to release 5 new cameras.
1.2 distinct full frames... both AA-less (a mirror-less without autofocus, just focus-peaking) that is strictly for the enthusiast with lots of legacy lenses (this makes them able to offer it in a very small and ridiculously cheap package since the autofocus circuitry and lenses have been removed). There will also be a regular full frame with all the regular gadgetry and a price comparable to the closest Canikon packages. Instead of being true full-frames, however, pentax will shave approx. 5% off to compensate for the sensor-shift stabilizer. Everyone seems to forget that when you test a pentax lens and 'confirm' it's full frame on a pentax film camera that it's not actually proving it works with a sensor-shift camera.
2. 2 distinct APSC cameras as with the fullframes
3. An entry-level waterproof/sealed camera

Also, the reason Sigma announced that they would produce and then backed off on the latest and greatest lenses (180 macro, 120-300) is that they're going to work with Pentax producing the lenses in Pentax mount for the full frames being released, but Pentax will do the coatings and put the DC drive in rather than the HSM in exchange Sigma doesn't produce them in Pentax mount (like the tamron deals in the past). Combined with Tokina they have full coverage of the lenses for full-frame.

What is my evidence for this... it's become apparent you don't need things like evidence to post crazy assumptions here...

Cheers.
03-12-2013, 04:46 PM   #224
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Based on the new rebates offered for buying a K-5II and an FA limited lens ($250 off per Limited lens if purchased at the same time as a K-5II and a similar offer when buying a 645D) I would suggest that a new Medium format camera and a Full Frame DSLR are about to be released. The other possible reason for promoting the FA LTD lenses so aggressively could be that they are about to be discontinued but I think it will more be about getting FF lenses into as many hands as possible so they can sell the new FF camera.
QuoteOriginally posted by NickLarsson Quote
It may be both if they plan to re-release the 3 amigos as new DFA LTD lenses.
QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
Or it could be a case of shifting stock of the K-5II and 645D because they are about to be superceded.
Or it could be a simple as Ricoh wanting to drive as much Cash Flow as possible into the Income Statement before the FY end (which is March 31 in Japan).
03-12-2013, 04:47 PM   #225
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QuoteOriginally posted by PENFRED Quote
Pardon my ignorance, but just how much retooling is needed to put a Pentax mount on an already exisiting Sigma lens? Is it really that involved and expensive?
Absolutely! There is quite a bit more than just changing the mount. Pentax and sony mounts from sigma are more or less developed without OS, so the internals of the lenses changes. Some of the Sigma lenses for pentax and sony are developed without HSM (they have been in the past) which requires a different focusing system to be installed. Also, different registration distances and different mount hole patterns which require different flange plates (or whatever you would call the lens base that the mount attached too) to be manufactured - all of this is taken into account on an assembly line. Depending on the size and the amount of people on the assembly line, they could be looking at hundreds of thousands of dollars (or even more) just for a couple of hours downtime for retooling.
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