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04-09-2013, 07:43 PM   #361
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Thanks for the link. What I found surprising is
QuoteQuote:
#12: Pentax PENTAX K-5 II s body
: Lowest price 79,384
My currency convertor says 79,384 is roughly $800. While I have very firm intention not to buy it (because I have K-5) I would be extremely tempted if I could get it at that price.

Maybe that is the very reason of its popularity?

QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
I think we need some antidote to all the gloom. Here's the ranking from kakaku.com, every time I've stopped by there lately it has been similar: the K-5 IIs is a hit and the K-30 is also selling well, so well that one of the gazillions of color/lens combos (namely white + 18-135) shows up in the top 20:
http://kakaku.com/camera/digital-slr-camera/ranking_0049/


04-11-2013, 10:47 AM   #362
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Yes, but all of those simple features can all be do-able on any camera with an M mode. Therein are your manual shutter speed, ISO and aperture dials.
Most 'learner's want to stay on their training wheels (full auto modes) and not ride unaided on a smooth bitumen road (semi-auto modes), let alone venture out into the off-road territory (M/B modes)...
The problem is the user of the tool...
Yes and no.
Digital is way too forgiving. And too easy (just delete and shoot again). Oh, and you can check on the screen so screw the Intellect and shoot, you'll get one right (OK this is too much but you get it).

Now this is the kind of tool which forces you to think. One can get only better when using digital after such experience..



Digital allows to think after. Silver, specially in sizes like 4"x 5" (and bigger) does not !
04-11-2013, 11:36 AM   #363
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How many learners want to think nowadays? Unfortunately the 'good old days' when the youth were satisfied with learning skills from first principles are replaced with automation that allows for so many things to be done for them. A number of fundamental steps can be skipped and never again need to be revisited due to technology. Who learns trigonometry based on tables anymore? Or how to plot complex algebraic formulae on a Cartesian map from first principles? These slower, more mental methods have quickly been replaced with the graphical scientific calculator. A student not equipped with one nowadays is significantly disadvantaged, even if clever enough to solve problems effectively from first principles.

Similarly, these days the photography student is spoilt with the ever advancing camera tool. Using film is more bothersome and hardly as self-gratifying. Although I stepped back from digital to learn a lot of my skills on a film camera and 50mm lens, I don't suggest this method suits all students nowadays, and I'm certain I would have learnt the skills anyway if I had just put the 50mm lens onto a dSLR at the time. Step forward to today, and second hand dSLRs of excellent quality are available for less than a handful of rolls of good film, let alone developing them. So for better or for worse, times have changed and the options for learning have broadened. I just don't see a bare bones manual dSLR doing well beyond the keen student clientele, since all such features are available on all current dSLRs if the students choose to use them.
04-11-2013, 11:55 AM   #364
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It's the student who decides to think or not think, not his camera. A digital camera, just like the old instamatics, gives you rapid feedback. Think, take your shot, and then know right away how you did. If you make a mistake, which ways is more likely to help you learn from it?
1. Get feedback right away so you can analyze your error, make adjustments, try again, and immediately see your improvement
2. Get feedback several days later so you can no longer remember the exact conditions or what you were doing?

Oh yes, and #1 also records your aperture, ISO, lens, focal length, shutter speed, etc... whereas in #2 you scratch your head and try to remember what you used.

No, I'm pretty much going to claim that #1 is a better way to learn provided that the student is putting in equal effort. If he doesn't though, that's not the fault of the camera.

My first lens purchase after buying my K-30 recently was to get an Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7 to learn about manual focus, lens speed, and primes vs. zooms and now I'm waiting for my first m42 lens to show up early next week. I don't feel that digital is preventing me from learning at all.

04-11-2013, 12:30 PM   #365
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But a "bare bones" dSLR that had a full frame sensor, decent shutter and light meter, but no auto modes, would cost roughly as much as a dSLR which had all those things, but included auto modes and video. The software is developed and the only question is what things to activate on a given camera. Why does the K30 only do 3 exposures in multi exposure mode, but the K5 does 5? Because Pentax chose that as a separation. Is there any savings to only allowing 3 exposures? No. Not at all.

So in the end, who cares if there are auto modes that are for night time scenes or sports scenes, or whatever? Just don't use them, but don't blame the cost of the camera on them, because they really are fairly inexpensive to implement.
04-11-2013, 12:48 PM   #366
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QuoteOriginally posted by twr Quote
Pentax needs to rekindle the magic of the K1000. Quality, affordable, and just the fundamentals.
That would be the K-01 at the current fire sale prices.

Funny that the K-01 has probably achieved what it set out to do in the first place draw new Pentaxians to the brand albeit at a much lower price than originally planned.
04-11-2013, 01:26 PM   #367
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Yes,
The problem is the user of the tool...
Sometimes you need to take away the training wheels.

I don't deny that it's the same price or close to it to make a camera with or without auto modes. At the end of the day its upto the user to decide if they are going to use them or not. My K5 rarely leaves M mode. Does it bother me I got TAv and ill never use it? No.

But what I would love is an affordable entry level basic camera to give to my niece or nephew for them to learn on without having the crutch of auto.
04-11-2013, 02:23 PM - 1 Like   #368
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  • Do you want to build the car?
    • M Mode, fixed ISO with Green Button / DoF switch for exposure metering manual lenses
  • Do you want to drive the car?
    • P, TAv, Av, SV with Auto ISO
  • Do you want to be driven?
    • G Mode, SCN Mode


04-12-2013, 05:42 PM   #369
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My question would be what shots can you get with the 4x5 that you couldn't get with a good digital sensor with all the bells and whistles? There are some, and some effects and characteristics. So much of what was done with film was working around hard limits of the medium. As with digital, with moderate skills you are working at the edge of the limits of the equipment. Each medium and each advance in technology moves the edge. There will be some people who buy a D800 with an expensive lens and essentially use it as an expensive point and shoot. So much the better for whoever sold it to them.

I had shot film cameras when I was young, then digital point and shoots, then a bridge Canon. That opened my eyes to the possibilities and made me want more, then a dslr, and another one. I keep seeing inexpensive Pentax film cameras and probably will purchase one at one time. Don't discount ease of use and automatic functions as a learning tool. To get the results you like takes skill and understanding of the art of photography. The auto functions lets you have fun while learning.

My goal this spring it to get a good clear focussed shot of a mountain bluebird flying. I have a three week window when they congregate in an small area before heading into higher altitudes. With automatic function I have a 10% chance of getting a shot worth sharing. With a manual focus lens, 0%. To even consider the possibility with film and manual was to assume a National Geographic budget of time and film and equipment. I fail to see how the automatic functions have removed the necessity of learning. It simply has moved the post of what would be considered exceptional.
04-12-2013, 05:49 PM   #370
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
the 4x5 that you couldn't get with a good digital sensor with all the bells and whistles?
quite a few actually - certainly tilt/shift lenses allow you to mimic a 4X5 camera movements - but I have used a 4X5 with an 8X10 format lens and it is possible to use extreme tilts and swings that would be utterly impossible on any 35mm camera. Technical cameras will always be around, 35mm was originally intended to be an amateur format, Medium format will always be largely for the professionals - and those with a budget to support it.
04-12-2013, 07:14 PM   #371
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
quite a few actually - certainly tilt/shift lenses allow you to mimic a 4X5 camera movements - but I have used a 4X5 with an 8X10 format lens and it is possible to use extreme tilts and swings that would be utterly impossible on any 35mm camera. Technical cameras will always be around, 35mm was originally intended to be an amateur format, Medium format will always be largely for the professionals - and those with a budget to support it.
I think anything smaller than 8x10 was 'originally intended for amateurs', no?
04-12-2013, 07:36 PM   #372
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I think anything smaller than 8x10 was 'originally intended for amateurs', no?
you have a point there, I wonder what George Eastman would think of what has become of 35mm these days.
04-12-2013, 08:32 PM   #373
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@Rondec - my K5 does a max of 9 shots (not 5) in multi-exposure mode.
04-13-2013, 03:57 AM   #374
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QuoteOriginally posted by joe.penn Quote
@Rondec - my K5 does a max of 9 shots (not 5) in multi-exposure mode.
You learn something every day. I always shoot five and never tried to go over that, so there you have it. Anyway, I just think there is a fair amount of software crippling done on entry and mid level models, even for Pentax, to protect the expensive cameras. This particularly so, when Nikon has a 24 megapixels sensor in all of their recently released cameras up to the D600.
04-13-2013, 04:13 AM   #375
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
How many learners want to think nowadays? Unfortunately the 'good old days' when the youth were satisfied with learning skills from first principles are replaced with automation that allows for so many things to be done for them. A number of fundamental steps can be skipped and never again need to be revisited due to technology. Who learns trigonometry based on tables anymore? Or how to plot complex algebraic formulae on a Cartesian map from first principles? These slower, more mental methods have quickly been replaced with the graphical scientific calculator. A student not equipped with one nowadays is significantly disadvantaged, even if clever enough to solve problems effectively from first principles.

Similarly, these days the photography student is spoilt with the ever advancing camera tool. Using film is more bothersome and hardly as self-gratifying. Although I stepped back from digital to learn a lot of my skills on a film camera and 50mm lens, I don't suggest this method suits all students nowadays, and I'm certain I would have learnt the skills anyway if I had just put the 50mm lens onto a dSLR at the time. Step forward to today, and second hand dSLRs of excellent quality are available for less than a handful of rolls of good film, let alone developing them. So for better or for worse, times have changed and the options for learning have broadened. I just don't see a bare bones manual dSLR doing well beyond the keen student clientele, since all such features are available on all current dSLRs if the students choose to use them.
My son started a Media and Communications course at university this year, and one of his elective subjects is photography. The course requires them to use a 35mm manual film SLR for all their shots! I had my old Olympus OM-1 reconditioned and gave him some lessons before the course started (which gave him a good head start). The students are given exercises on aperture and exposure, selecting depth of field, composition, etc. This is impressive, and my son is really appreciating and enjoying it. I am sure this is still the best way to learn photography from scratch; the dSLR will come later. So perhaps the 'good old days' are not completely gone yet.
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