New DSLRs from Pentax

joe.penn · 03-12-2013, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by mecrox

As has been pointed out elsewhere, this still leaves Pentax with a problem: long lenses for sports and wildlife.

Originally posted by Kunzite

Sports is not the typical Pentax domain, but they're working on the long lenses issue (the 560, the tele zoom on the roadmap and who knows what follows).
Sigma can fits some gaps.

Sure Sigma can fill the gap, unfortunately it is without a doubt apparent that Sigma is not interested in committing to manufacturing the pro level glass for Pentax/or K-mount. Also, Tamron seems to also be shunning Pentax, most of their new lenses cover Canikon and Sony but none of their new good (well, descent) glass for Pentax.

There is only one sure thing with Pentax, the only sure thing that has ever been confirmed and (or) spoken from Ricoh/Pentax regarding DSLR's, and that is:

"We [Ricoh/Pentax] are fully committed to the development and advancement of the APS-C format"

Let's see their response to the D7100 that comes out in a couple of days, that will determine how serious and committed Pentax is in the DSLR market...

Wired · 03-12-2013, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

you don't do your own washing do you?

I'm not allowed too

seriously... I got it pretty good with my lady. She's too OCD with the cleaning to let me clean. she will re-do it anyways. all I gotta do is cook and not leave my junk laying about.

Kunzite · 03-12-2013, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by joe.penn

Sure Sigma can fill the gap, unfortunately it is without a doubt apparent that Sigma is not interested in committing to manufacturing the pro level glass for Pentax/or K-mount. Also, Tamron seems to also be shunning Pentax, most of their new lenses cover Canikon and Sony but none of their new good (well, descent) glass for Pentax.

I beg to differ, Sigma is interested in profitable K-mount products. If they will think they can make "enough" money on a certain pro level glass, they'll make it.
As Pentax market will increase (which seems to be in their plan), so will the possibility of having pro level Sigma lenses.

IchabodCrane · 03-12-2013, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

I beg to differ, Sigma is interested in profitable K-mount products. If they will think they can make "enough" money on a certain pro level glass, they'll make it.
As Pentax market will increase (which seems to be in their plan), so will the possibility of having pro level Sigma lenses.

And this is why it's a chicken-and-egg situation. It's hard for Pentax to expand their market into FF without all of the appropriate lenses and it's hard for Sigma (or others) to commit to developing those lenses in K-mount with the market being there.

joe.penn · 03-12-2013, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

I beg to differ, Sigma is interested in profitable K-mount products. If they will think they can make "enough" money on a certain pro level glass, they'll make it.
As Pentax market will increase (which seems to be in their plan), so will the possibility of having pro level Sigma lenses.

Just check out the new lineup and it will show different - case in point: the Sigma 120~300 2.8 [must have sports lens], a huge seller from Sigma, no K-Mount. Hard to make a profit with an extremely slim market - the manufacturers know how many lenses they will sell based on the market share of the brand. Pentax has what a 3% market share and that is probably stretching it now, for players like Sigma and Tokina it would make no sense in tooling machines and concentrating resources on products that they will only sell a small handful of. It all starts with Pentax and their ability to compete in the market and unfortunately they haven't showed much in a couple of years now - hopefully though they will be able to come out with something that will compete with the D7100...

Kunzite · 03-12-2013, 07:48 AM

What do you mean by "huge seller"? It's still quite an expensive product (nowhere near the 560, I know).
In any case, the market share under Hoya is not really relevant - since we should expect this to change.

Originally posted by IchabodCrane

And this is why it's a chicken-and-egg situation. It's hard for Pentax to expand their market into FF without all of the appropriate lenses and it's hard for Sigma (or others) to commit to developing those lenses in K-mount with the market being there.

The good thing is that, I believe, Pentax can break this vicious circle without needing an outside factor (i.e. 3rd-party lens maker).
It's not that hard, actually; make a relatively affordable camera, 2-3 lenses - and gradually build on that. Technically, it can be done; there is only the issue of profitability (but, since the recent talks about FF, it seems they found a solution).

joe.penn · 03-12-2013, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

What do you mean by "huge seller"? It's still quite an expensive product (nowhere near the 560, I know).

huge seller = quite popular across Canikon.

We may see it as an expensive product, but in actuality it is really cheaper in price to anything comparative that is close to it. Expensive (to me anyways) is the Sigma 500 4.5, there are quite a few people here on the forums that shoot with that lens so the price of lenses really isn't an issue, you just have to have the market share to support it.

Kunzite · 03-12-2013, 08:32 AM

Fair enough, it's popular among the higher-end users.
Currently, with one exception all Pentax K-mount lenses are cheaper than the Sigma 120-300, and from those all but 5 are less than $1000. Building a high-end market will take some time, but I'm convinced it's doable.
After all, they're no longer under Hoya.

**monochrome** · 03-12-2013, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by GordonZA

Pentax could bring out a 1DX and D4 killer pro level FF with a complete set of lenses and we would all still moan.... ha ha ha ha

Yep. I've recently concluded (as posted above) that Pentax has Fanboys and Nannyboys.

Pentax can do no wrong and Pentax can do no right.

**monochrome** · 03-12-2013, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by IchabodCrane

And this is why it's a chicken-and-egg situation. It's hard for Pentax to expand their market into FF without all of the appropriate lenses and it's hard for Sigma (or others) to commit to developing those lenses in K-mount with the market being there.

If Pentax was willing to share some of the development cost of the mount and tooling I'd bet Sigma would market the lenses.

mecrox · 03-12-2013, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Sports is not the typical Pentax domain, but they're working on the long lenses issue (the 560, the tele zoom on the roadmap and who knows what follows).
Sigma can fits some gaps.

I can easily spot two errors in this logic:
1. the DSLR market Pentax is currently competing in is the broadest.
2. Pentax can make products appealing both to the existing, and new customers; it's not like those are exclusive.
And a 3rd: competing in another market won't be easier, as you're implying.

I think you are missing the point here. Why buy two systems when you can buy only one and cover long as well as everyday? Since Canonikon offer this in spades, buying only one system is a safe bet and cheaper too. As long as this holds true Pentax will be at a disadvantage if they produce a conventional FF. It's a modern version of "No one ever got fired for buying IBM".To get the volume and so start squaring the finances, it's not unreasonable to say that Pentax need to draw in a lot of non-Pentax users. The question is how but I think it needs to be done, somehow, because milking the userbase again isn't much of a plan

IchabodCrane · 03-12-2013, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

If Pentax was willing to share some of the development cost of the mount and tooling I'd bet Sigma would market the lenses.

I hardly know much in this matter but, IIRC, Pentax never licensed the K-mount technology to Sigma. Everything was based on reverse-engineering is the way I think it was described. Not much of a cooperative track record to build upon and implement what you propose -- though it's a good approach.

Kunzite · 03-12-2013, 09:10 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by mecrox

I think you are missing the point here. Why buy two systems when you can buy only one and cover long as well as everyday? Since Canonikon offer this in spades, buying only one system is a safe bet and cheaper too. As long as this holds true Pentax will be at a disadvantage if they produce a conventional FF. It's a modern version of "No one ever got fired for buying IBM".To get the volume and so start squaring the finances, it's not unreasonable to say that Pentax need to draw in a lot of non-Pentax users. The question is how but I think it needs to be done, somehow, because milking the userbase again isn't much of a plan

I don't think I'm missing anything; on the contrary.
Being a software engineer, I'm thinking this issue in terms of: issue -> fix. The first issue as you presented, is the lack of long lens products. The fix can only be "adding long lens products" to their range; which is work in progress. The second issue is the small market share; and obviously, the fix is: "increase market share". The fix must specifically address the issue, otherwise you either don't understand the issue or you're fixing something else.

Going for another markets, abandoning their traditional users is not a solution for these issues. In fact, it would only make them worse.

**monochrome** · 03-12-2013, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by IchabodCrane

I hardly know much in this matter but, IIRC, Pentax never licensed the K-mount technology to Sigma. Everything was based on reverse-engineering is the way I think it was described. Not much of a cooperative track record to build upon and implement what you propose -- though it's a good approach.

Well there you go !!

We're just a liberal application of RicohBucks away from another range of decent lenses.

(And we also don't know that Hoya didn't loose the dogs on Sigma for reverse engineering thier mount. Not saying Hoya did but we don't know they didn't.).

Pentikonian · 03-12-2013, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

Yep. I've recently concluded (as posted above) that Pentax has Fanboys and Nannyboys.

Pentax can do no wrong and Pentax can do no right.

Well, not all of us.

And IMHO the observation above can hold true with many Canon and Nikon users as well.

Pentax does do some things right. I love the ergonomics and build on the K-5. Love the Limited series lenses. IQ is wonderful - even on the "outdated" K-5. I really love the old 645N and FA 645 lenses, and am seriously lusting for a 645D one day.

As someone who has spent much more time with Canon and Nikon than Pentax, there's two main things I'm seriously hoping Pentax improves.

Viewfinder - at least on the top APS-C and the future FF bodies, get rid of the dark tunnels and put in a nice bright LARGE viewfinder. (And before I get jumped by the "viewfinder determined by sensor/ mirror size" crowd... go view the world through a D2X viewfinder for a while. It is an APS-C camera with a much larger and brighter viewfinder than the current APS-C DSLR offerings by pretty much any manufacturer. So it can be done, and done well.)

AF - work on the system and get it closer to Nikon. (Using my D700 and K-5 side by side, the D700 AF system works better than Pentax. I'd love seeing that level of performance from Pentax.)

That's it for the most part. Address the two things above and I could very easily make the move to Pentax as a primary system.

03-12-2013, 08:36 AM	#189
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by GordonZA Pentax could bring out a 1DX and D4 killer pro level FF with a complete set of lenses and we would all still moan.... ha ha ha ha Yep. I've recently concluded (as posted above) that Pentax has Fanboys and Nannyboys. Pentax can do no wrong and Pentax can do no right. Last edited by monochrome; 03-12-2013 at 08:44 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
New to DSLRs and new to Pentax	K Five	Welcomes and Introductions	3	02-05-2013 06:52 AM
Pentax dSLRs in more B&M stores with the new ads?	Docrwm	Pentax DSLR Discussion	7	11-01-2012 03:47 PM
How would you market the new Pentax dSLRs?	Docrwm	Pentax DSLR Discussion	40	09-26-2012 02:57 PM
Pentax DSLRS RAW + JPEG, and all DSLRs for that matter.	ebooks4pentax	Pentax DSLR Discussion	5	10-01-2008 01:59 PM
New To Pentax DSLRs (k100d)	shutterpuppy	Pentax DSLR Discussion	11	03-24-2008 06:20 PM

03-12-2013, 07:16 AM	#181
joe.penn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Maryland (Right Outside Washington DC) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,902	Originally posted by mecrox As has been pointed out elsewhere, this still leaves Pentax with a problem: long lenses for sports and wildlife. Originally posted by Kunzite Sports is not the typical Pentax domain, but they're working on the long lenses issue (the 560, the tele zoom on the roadmap and who knows what follows). Sigma can fits some gaps. Sure Sigma can fill the gap, unfortunately it is without a doubt apparent that Sigma is not interested in committing to manufacturing the pro level glass for Pentax/or K-mount. Also, Tamron seems to also be shunning Pentax, most of their new lenses cover Canikon and Sony but none of their new good (well, descent) glass for Pentax. There is only one sure thing with Pentax, the only sure thing that has ever been confirmed and (or) spoken from Ricoh/Pentax regarding DSLR's, and that is: "We [Ricoh/Pentax] are fully committed to the development and advancement of the APS-C format" Let's see their response to the D7100 that comes out in a couple of days, that will determine how serious and committed Pentax is in the DSLR market...

03-12-2013, 07:17 AM	#182
Wired Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Edmonton, AB Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,519	Originally posted by Digitalis you don't do your own washing do you? I'm not allowed too seriously... I got it pretty good with my lady. She's too OCD with the cleaning to let me clean. she will re-do it anyways. all I gotta do is cook and not leave my junk laying about.

03-12-2013, 07:28 AM	#183
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by joe.penn Sure Sigma can fill the gap, unfortunately it is without a doubt apparent that Sigma is not interested in committing to manufacturing the pro level glass for Pentax/or K-mount. Also, Tamron seems to also be shunning Pentax, most of their new lenses cover Canikon and Sony but none of their new good (well, descent) glass for Pentax. I beg to differ, Sigma is interested in profitable K-mount products. If they will think they can make "enough" money on a certain pro level glass, they'll make it. As Pentax market will increase (which seems to be in their plan), so will the possibility of having pro level Sigma lenses.

03-12-2013, 07:36 AM	#184
IchabodCrane Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,728	Originally posted by Kunzite I beg to differ, Sigma is interested in profitable K-mount products. If they will think they can make "enough" money on a certain pro level glass, they'll make it. As Pentax market will increase (which seems to be in their plan), so will the possibility of having pro level Sigma lenses. And this is why it's a chicken-and-egg situation. It's hard for Pentax to expand their market into FF without all of the appropriate lenses and it's hard for Sigma (or others) to commit to developing those lenses in K-mount with the market being there.

03-12-2013, 07:42 AM	#185
joe.penn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Maryland (Right Outside Washington DC) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,902	Originally posted by Kunzite I beg to differ, Sigma is interested in profitable K-mount products. If they will think they can make "enough" money on a certain pro level glass, they'll make it. As Pentax market will increase (which seems to be in their plan), so will the possibility of having pro level Sigma lenses. Just check out the new lineup and it will show different - case in point: the Sigma 120~300 2.8 [must have sports lens], a huge seller from Sigma, no K-Mount. Hard to make a profit with an extremely slim market - the manufacturers know how many lenses they will sell based on the market share of the brand. Pentax has what a 3% market share and that is probably stretching it now, for players like Sigma and Tokina it would make no sense in tooling machines and concentrating resources on products that they will only sell a small handful of. It all starts with Pentax and their ability to compete in the market and unfortunately they haven't showed much in a couple of years now - hopefully though they will be able to come out with something that will compete with the D7100...

03-12-2013, 07:48 AM	#186
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	What do you mean by "huge seller"? It's still quite an expensive product (nowhere near the 560, I know). In any case, the market share under Hoya is not really relevant - since we should expect this to change. Originally posted by IchabodCrane And this is why it's a chicken-and-egg situation. It's hard for Pentax to expand their market into FF without all of the appropriate lenses and it's hard for Sigma (or others) to commit to developing those lenses in K-mount with the market being there. The good thing is that, I believe, Pentax can break this vicious circle without needing an outside factor (i.e. 3rd-party lens maker). It's not that hard, actually; make a relatively affordable camera, 2-3 lenses - and gradually build on that. Technically, it can be done; there is only the issue of profitability (but, since the recent talks about FF, it seems they found a solution).

03-12-2013, 08:10 AM	#187
joe.penn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Maryland (Right Outside Washington DC) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,902	Originally posted by Kunzite What do you mean by "huge seller"? It's still quite an expensive product (nowhere near the 560, I know). huge seller = quite popular across Canikon. We may see it as an expensive product, but in actuality it is really cheaper in price to anything comparative that is close to it. Expensive (to me anyways) is the Sigma 500 4.5, there are quite a few people here on the forums that shoot with that lens so the price of lenses really isn't an issue, you just have to have the market share to support it.

03-12-2013, 08:32 AM	#188
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Fair enough, it's popular among the higher-end users. Currently, with one exception all Pentax K-mount lenses are cheaper than the Sigma 120-300, and from those all but 5 are less than $1000. Building a high-end market will take some time, but I'm convinced it's doable. After all, they're no longer under Hoya.

03-12-2013, 08:42 AM	#190
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by IchabodCrane And this is why it's a chicken-and-egg situation. It's hard for Pentax to expand their market into FF without all of the appropriate lenses and it's hard for Sigma (or others) to commit to developing those lenses in K-mount with the market being there. If Pentax was willing to share some of the development cost of the mount and tooling I'd bet Sigma would market the lenses.

03-12-2013, 08:48 AM	#191
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by Kunzite Sports is not the typical Pentax domain, but they're working on the long lenses issue (the 560, the tele zoom on the roadmap and who knows what follows). Sigma can fits some gaps. I can easily spot two errors in this logic: 1. the DSLR market Pentax is currently competing in is the broadest. 2. Pentax can make products appealing both to the existing, and new customers; it's not like those are exclusive. And a 3rd: competing in another market won't be easier, as you're implying. I think you are missing the point here. Why buy two systems when you can buy only one and cover long as well as everyday? Since Canonikon offer this in spades, buying only one system is a safe bet and cheaper too. As long as this holds true Pentax will be at a disadvantage if they produce a conventional FF. It's a modern version of "No one ever got fired for buying IBM".To get the volume and so start squaring the finances, it's not unreasonable to say that Pentax need to draw in a lot of non-Pentax users. The question is how but I think it needs to be done, somehow, because milking the userbase again isn't much of a plan

03-12-2013, 08:57 AM	#192
IchabodCrane Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,728	Originally posted by monochrome If Pentax was willing to share some of the development cost of the mount and tooling I'd bet Sigma would market the lenses. I hardly know much in this matter but, IIRC, Pentax never licensed the K-mount technology to Sigma. Everything was based on reverse-engineering is the way I think it was described. Not much of a cooperative track record to build upon and implement what you propose -- though it's a good approach.

03-12-2013, 09:10 AM - 1 Like	#193
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by mecrox I think you are missing the point here. Why buy two systems when you can buy only one and cover long as well as everyday? Since Canonikon offer this in spades, buying only one system is a safe bet and cheaper too. As long as this holds true Pentax will be at a disadvantage if they produce a conventional FF. It's a modern version of "No one ever got fired for buying IBM".To get the volume and so start squaring the finances, it's not unreasonable to say that Pentax need to draw in a lot of non-Pentax users. The question is how but I think it needs to be done, somehow, because milking the userbase again isn't much of a plan I don't think I'm missing anything; on the contrary. Being a software engineer, I'm thinking this issue in terms of: issue -> fix. The first issue as you presented, is the lack of long lens products. The fix can only be "adding long lens products" to their range; which is work in progress. The second issue is the small market share; and obviously, the fix is: "increase market share". The fix must specifically address the issue, otherwise you either don't understand the issue or you're fixing something else. Going for another markets, abandoning their traditional users is not a solution for these issues. In fact, it would only make them worse.

03-12-2013, 09:35 AM	#194
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by IchabodCrane I hardly know much in this matter but, IIRC, Pentax never licensed the K-mount technology to Sigma. Everything was based on reverse-engineering is the way I think it was described. Not much of a cooperative track record to build upon and implement what you propose -- though it's a good approach. Well there you go !! We're just a liberal application of RicohBucks away from another range of decent lenses. (And we also don't know that Hoya didn't loose the dogs on Sigma for reverse engineering thier mount. Not saying Hoya did but we don't know they didn't.).

03-12-2013, 09:54 AM	#195
Pentikonian Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 780	Originally posted by monochrome Yep. I've recently concluded (as posted above) that Pentax has Fanboys and Nannyboys. Pentax can do no wrong and Pentax can do no right. Well, not all of us. And IMHO the observation above can hold true with many Canon and Nikon users as well. Pentax does do some things right. I love the ergonomics and build on the K-5. Love the Limited series lenses. IQ is wonderful - even on the "outdated" K-5. I really love the old 645N and FA 645 lenses, and am seriously lusting for a 645D one day. As someone who has spent much more time with Canon and Nikon than Pentax, there's two main things I'm seriously hoping Pentax improves. Viewfinder - at least on the top APS-C and the future FF bodies, get rid of the dark tunnels and put in a nice bright LARGE viewfinder. (And before I get jumped by the "viewfinder determined by sensor/ mirror size" crowd... go view the world through a D2X viewfinder for a while. It is an APS-C camera with a much larger and brighter viewfinder than the current APS-C DSLR offerings by pretty much any manufacturer. So it can be done, and done well.) AF - work on the system and get it closer to Nikon. (Using my D700 and K-5 side by side, the D700 AF system works better than Pentax. I'd love seeing that level of performance from Pentax.) That's it for the most part. Address the two things above and I could very easily make the move to Pentax as a primary system.