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04-27-2013, 08:24 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Now you're speaking nonsense. Painters as a group evaluate paintings with a different set of criteria than non-painters. Likewise, guitarists probably evaluate songs with a different set of criteria than non-guitarists. In each case, painters and guitarists are drawing from a knowledge base that's radically different than others.

Let me be clear here - I'm not saying then that they will all think alike and all have the same opinion on things. No, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But when painters look at a Picasso, they're probably seeing things and thinking about things that a non-painter has little knowledge and no first-hand experience of.

Am I wrong in drawing the conclusion that the online camera community as a whole had a negative view of the K-01's looks?
Am I wrong in making a personal observation that the non-camera people that I met thought that the K-01 looked neat?
Is there anything wrong in finding patterns in data and trying to understand them?

I'm not in any way shape or form implying that someone that doesn't like the K-01's looks is wrong.
Of course there are many criteria that will cause enthusiasts photographers to look at cameras differently, but we aren't not arguing about those criteria. Just the look of a camera. And I still maintain there's no rationale to claim enthusiasts are more likely to dislike the the look of the K-01 than anyone else.


QuoteQuote:
Am I wrong in drawing the conclusion that the online camera community as a whole had a negative view of the K-01's looks?
Yes I think you are. From what I've seen of the online community the view of the K-01 has been pretty evenly split in terms of live and hate

QuoteQuote:
Am I wrong in making a personal observation that the non-camera people that I met thought that the K-01 looked neat?
I'm not claiming you're lying about your personal experiences s I have no reason to doubt them, I'm just saying there's no rationale for why those particular people thought it looked neat. I also suspect the sample size of people is pretty small.

04-27-2013, 08:45 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
The non-camera enthusiasts didn't buy the camera, either, in any appreciable quantity ...
Do you have any sales data related to that? I've really wondered what those numbers would be.

Cheers,
04-27-2013, 10:10 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Smeggypants Quote
From what I've seen of the online community the view of the K-01 has been pretty evenly split in terms of live and hate.
Try this, Google "Pentax K-01 ugly" and peruse the results. Then Google "Fuji X-Pro 1 ugly", "Olympus OM-D ugly" and peruse the results. Try "Nikon d800 ugly" or "nearly any other camera but the K-01 ugly." I'd hazard a guess that the only other camera in recent memory that was judged ugly by camera enthusiasts online at a level anywhere close to the K-01 was the Hassleblad Lunar.
04-27-2013, 11:22 PM - 7 Likes   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Hmmn, the K-01 suggests that you cannot repurpose a DSLR by removing the mirrorbox and trying to pass it off as a dedicated MILC. You have to design everything from the ground up with mirrorless in mind, including the mount and the lenses. If you skip that bit, which Pentax did, you'll end up with a world-class embarrassment whatever the internals may be.
I think you're mistaking what they did with the K-01. What you're describing as 'have to' is what they did with the Q, not that it's been any great sales success either. The basic issue is that any MILC design involves compromise. Pentax chose to split the compromises with two different cameras. At this point, I've used examples of several MILC systems - Micro 4/3 (Olympus E-P1, Panasonic G2 and GX1), Pentax (Q and K-01), Sony (NEX-5), and Nikon (V1) - so here's my thoughts based on that experience.

(Another caveat - I far, far prefer handheld and almost never use a tripod, unless it's a mini unit to brace against my chest. I also prefer to shoot one-handed. For me, photography is mostly about serendipity instead of setup - catching an angle, or a moment of lighting, and being ready to capture it immediately.)

The basic MILC compromise is between size and image quality. To make the camera+lens smaller, you have to make the sensor smaller, reducing image quality. And redesigning the optics system requires designing a whole new set of lenses - which can be great for a company trying to sell you more gear, but is less than ideal for the photographer who has to buy into the system. Quite aside from the higher cost, you have a real problem with lens selection unless a) the company does a really great job of cranking out lenses, or b) they can get other companies to buy into new lenses. Adapted lenses can help, but at the cost of going full manual, and usually with a fair amount of awkwardness from the adaptation (adapters that extend out beyond the thickness of the camera itself, that sort of thing).

* Sony tried to cheat by putting a large sensor in a tiny body. The problem is that this just shoved the size into the lenses, resulting in a tiny body with a huge lens attached - and because of the way they cheated with the body, that huge lens is hanging unbalanced to one side, with a relatively tiny grip to control it. When I shot with the NEX-5, the drag of the lens kept tilting the image unless I consciously kept my mind on correcting it... which distracts from actually taking pictures, at least for me. The 18-55 kit lens is pretty bad (and I'd hate to think what the 55-210 would be like), but even the Sigma 19mm and 30mm feel off-balance. The lens selection itself is still pretty limited, and from what I've read most of the ones I could even think about affording are mediocre at best. The short flange distance does make it good for adapting 35mm SLR lenses, but the length of the adapter itself just makes the balance problem worse.

* Nikon went for a smaller sensor to get smaller lenses with the One system, but I think they did a bad job of it. The lenses are smaller than Micro 4/3, but not by enough to make a significant difference in handling, at least for me. The V1 itself was actually bigger, heavier, and far less comfortable to shoot with (seriously, they think a single strip on the front is good enough for a grip?) than the GX-1 or even the E-P1. And despite some reviews that liked the IQ, in my own experience I thought it was inferior to a Fuji X10 compact - let alone Micro 4/3. I've seen some stuff on adapting lenses for it, but frankly I was disappointed enough in the camera that I haven't tried doing it.

* Micro 4/3 is, I think, the most successful *single* compromise among MILC's. It's got two companies supporting it, so there's a wide variety of bodies and lenses to choose from; the sensor is enough smaller to allow smaller bodies and lenses, without compromising too badly on image quality (and the newest sensor on the EM-5 and E-PL5 is supposed to be a near equal to the NEX's APS-C, though I haven't had a chance to play with that). The bodies I've tried have also had better ergonomics, with better-balanced lenses than the NEX series. The biggest problem I have with it is that it's expensive - the best IQ bodies and lenses are well out of my reach, and the more affordable bodies have lesser IQ.

* Pentax, as I said, decided to split the difference by making two models. They pushed size/weight about as far as it could practically go with the Q, and they pushed image quality about as far as it could go with the K-01 (DSLR sensor and native, unadapted use of DSLR lenses). The sales suggest this was a poor decision from a marketing standpoint; and I admit that from a photography standpoint, if I had to pick just one camera, it'd probably be my GX-1. But after picking up a Q in last fall's model closeout, and a fire sale K-01 a couple of weeks ago, I have to admit and even promote their advantages. The GX-1 is a well-designed camera and is fun to shoot with; but the Q is even more fun to shoot, handles almost effortlessly, and can pack a full and versatile kit into a much smaller space. And the K-01 handles better than I expected (although with some significant flaws), takes beautiful pictures, and can use cheap-but-classic glass more conveniently than the GX-1 does.

So I think calling the K-01 a 'repurposed DSLR' is unfair. It really does feel to me like they decided to make a MILC that pushes DSLR quality - hence the sensor and the native K-mount - and then tried to design the smallest camera they could around that concept. I don't think it was a complete success (I'm not fond of the grip, the rubber flap, or the green/red button placement either), but I don't think it was a lazy design. And I think the Q and the K-01 do a much better job than Nikon One and NEX, respectively - Nikon and Sony compromised too much, without enough benefit to show for it.

04-28-2013, 12:29 AM   #110
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Will be interesting what eventuates over the next year in regards to how Pentax/Ricoh approach MILC- seems like the Q is here to stay and the APSC GRD- what now GXR/K-01 do you see room for both? Guess we will see.
04-28-2013, 09:38 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by slocant Quote
Do you have any sales data related to that? I've really wondered what those numbers would be.

Cheers,
No sales data on the K-01 other than the two important facts that Pentax discontinued the model and, as far as we know, only one production run was made. Both suggest nobody purchased the K-01 in big volumes.
04-28-2013, 10:14 AM   #112
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Wrong, only two colour pattern have been discontinued, and as far as we know the production of K-01 hasn't stopped yet.
04-28-2013, 10:20 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Wrong, only two colour pattern have been discontinued, and as far as we know the production of K-01 hasn't stopped yet.
The drastic price drops, with retailers in the US listing the camera as 'discontinued' rather than 'out of stock' for most options, strongly suggest the entire camera-line is discontinued.

04-28-2013, 10:52 AM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
as far as we know, only one production run was made.
We know that? Source, please.
04-28-2013, 01:27 PM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
We know that? Source, please.
It was on the market for less than a year and didn't see meaningful sales until late in the sales cycle (due to massive price cut). You don't make "just a few" at a time of any of these things. If you think I'm wrong, please tell us why.
04-28-2013, 02:02 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Wrong, only two colour pattern have been discontinued, and as far as we know the production of K-01 hasn't stopped yet.
While old stock of various colors may available from sellers, the K-01 was listed as discontinued on the Pentax Japan website on February 25th. See below regarding production.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
We know that? Source, please.
No one has reported a K-01 (of any color) with a build date after September 2012. The build dates I have seen were between March and September. At CP+ in February, Hiraku Kawauchi confirmed that it was no longer in production (it was not on display or in any of the product catalogs at the time). Since then, a Pentax exec (in Europe?) said that it was intended as a one-year production only. (I'm trying to hunt down the interview) That may have been corporate damage-control-speak, but considering the K-01's experimental nature, a planned limited production run would seem reasonable. If it had taken off from the start, they could have continued production.
04-28-2013, 02:37 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
It was on the market for less than a year and didn't see meaningful sales until late in the sales cycle (due to massive price cut). You don't make "just a few" at a time of any of these things. If you think I'm wrong, please tell us why.
I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but I wanted to know how could one find out. From what I understand, it was speculation (but, again, not necessarily wrong).

THoog, between March and September would make a very long "one production run"
04-28-2013, 02:55 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
THoog, between March and September would make a very long "one production run"
Most of the dates I've seen were March, May, or August, suggesting three blocks/batches/whatever. The four bodies I've personally checked (purchased September-December) were March, April, and May.

This is probably wrong, but it's almost like they slowed down in June/July as stock piled up, then decided to wind things down and use up available components in August / early September. The first price reduction was in early September, but the big drops didn't come until mid-late October.
04-28-2013, 03:19 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
No sales data on the K-01 other than the two important facts that Pentax discontinued the model and, as far as we know, only one production run was made. Both suggest nobody purchased the K-01 in big volumes.
In the latest interview with a Pentax official (was it in China?) he said the K-01 was selling quite well.

I.e. someone did buy them.

But I was actually interested in knowing if non-camera enthusiasts hadn't bought them. For that's what you asserted:

QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
The non-camera enthusiasts didn't buy the camera, either, in any appreciable quantity ...
On another note, the press the K-01 received in design oriented media (the ones I read, all of them) was quite positive. The press received on photo-gear oriented media (and the forums) was quite critical both of the design and the ergonomics.

I have been enjoying mine alot, both as a tool to make photos and as an object :-) So much that my K10D hasn't seen much use. Although I can understand the advantages of the K10D's form factor.

Cheers,
04-28-2013, 03:39 PM - 1 Like   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
In my experience, the only people that don't like the K-01 design are the kinds of photographers that spend way too much time on forums like this. To a person, non photographers that I have met have really liked the K-01 design. To them, dSLRs look boring. And you know what? They're right.
exactly... people love my yellow k-01, I take it to the skatepark everybody comes to see "WHAT CAMERA IS THAT?!?!?", take it to photography school "what camera is that it looks so cool, did you make it yourself?" I tend to brightly leather all my cameras. First thing they ask after they check out the image quality is "what other colors does it come in?"... I spend too much time on forums like these but I still do not let it blind my style eye. Whats funny is I go to photography school, and all the students including my teachers are all canikon people, they honestly have no clue about any other brands and none of them have a clue about the existence of mirrorless, it's really odd. One of the things that always blows their minds is the constant live view, they get so amazed by it and the focus peaking. I wonder if pentax had access to TV commercials how big they would really be...
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