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04-09-2013, 07:19 AM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote

Please distinguish between Canon/Nikon camera companies' business models and Sony.Oly/Fuji/ Panasonic/Pentax, who divide the remaining fraction of the market between them
Sony's problems were nicely summed up in the Sony's Big Mistake article. Using that as a reason Pentax can't make a move into Full Frame is like giving the Newton as a reason the iPad could never be a success.

Pentax-Ricoh is better-positioned to introduce full frame than Oly/Fuji/panasonic/Samsung. Also, think of the alternative - to try to fight those other players in their strength, the segment being transformed by mirrorless and held by very strong m43 product lines? Would it be any easier to compete on volume and margins there?

04-09-2013, 07:31 AM - 1 Like   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
.
"...Pentaxians are saying, “Just keep doing what you’re doing."

They are? As in, 5th place and dropping, Sigma/Tamron slowly leaving the mount... keep it up!? This sounds like Thom Hogan playing a joke on us.

Also that sounds amazingly close to the typical Ford/GM/Chrysler 'customer survey' from the 70's or 80's, as in, "Our customers are satisfied with our products, they don't care about the Japanese cars, we know, we asked them!"

When you only survey your current customers about product wants/needs you get a very skewed picture of what the current and future market potentials are. It's something you do when your strategy amounts to nothing more than "shrink less than 20% in the next five years."

"...Let’s work on optics, let’s work on the size of the camera, or the weather resistance, and battery life and resolution and start paying attention to—continue paying attention to—the camera the way it is."

It would be hard to make up a less inspiring message.

Optics? Sure - if you intend to stick with and somehow dominate the aps-c DSLR space, where are the exciting new optics, then?

"work on" size? How much smaller can you make an aps-c DSLR? How much smaller can you make a K-01 replacement while still keeping the K-mount register distance? What is there to work on?

"work on" weather resistance? What, a new type of O-ring? What is there to work on here? You could start with making all new lenses fully WR, no exceptions. I see no suggested movement toward that, even.

"battery life" - ?? Invent a new cell? Put the camera to sleep quicker? What exciting development can you do here that someone else cannot do?

"resolution"? - you mean finally, at some point, go with the 24MP aps-c Sony sensor? OK, what after that with regard to 'resolution'? 36MP? 54MP? on aps-c?! (Maybe I like all my lenses diffraction-limited by f/3.5! )

This strategy is understandable for Pentax-standalone or Pentax-forsale (Hoya,) but not for Pentax-Ricoh. You don't buy a company to let it wither, unless you're Yahoo.


.
Uh oh...you're going to awaken the "Pentax can do no wrong crowd". (No need to name names, we know who they are).

I have been saying this since Ricoh took over. Ricoh has always moved at their own (very slow) pace. They also have never been more than a bit player in the camera industry. Yes, they make great, interesting products, but almost as an afterthought to their office products business. They have said that they want to become more serious about their camera business. Well, talk is cheap. Where are the results. There have been no big splashes except for the MAP which was almost universally hated (except for the "Pentax can do no wrong crowd"). There was supposed to be the bigger presence in the big box stores, and still all i see is Optio's in Target. The "Pentax can do no wrong crowd" will say, it takes time...meanwhile the other companies aren't going to sit on their hands waiting for Ricoh to get a foothold in their market.
04-09-2013, 08:03 AM   #168
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@jsherman999 :
It isn't about the market share. Pentax should indeed continue to make cameras like the K-5 II, compact, rugged, excellent ergonomics; in other words, to improve on what they have, rather than seeking entirely new directions.

Optics - I don't get it, you admit it is something to be worked on, but blame Jim for stating that?
Size - keeping things compact, maybe a small entry level for those terrified by the "bulk" of normal DSLRs? Faster, yet still compact lenses?
WR - Again, the fact that it's not done is not an argument.
Battery life - K-30 is only so-so, maybe they could improve power consumption and the way it works with AAs. It doesn't have to be something that "someone else cannot do".
"Resolution" - For the 3rd time, the fact that they have to do it is not an argument against Jim stating it.

cali92rs: it would be great if you would limit yourself to ideas, instead of making up some imaginary "Pentax can do no wrong crowd", just to preemptively silence up any counter-argument.
Things are moving slowly, indeed; oh well, I can still be patient, for a little while.
04-09-2013, 08:05 AM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
.
Optics? Sure - if you intend to stick with and somehow dominate the aps-c DSLR space, where are the exciting new optics, then?
If they plan to stick to APS-C...No problem. But make new primes.

They said that DA limited pancake line is full.... As for me -
DA LIMITED PANCAKES could be
DA18/3.5
DA24/2.8
DA28/2.5 (30/2)
DA85/2.8
DA135/3.5

Let it be APS-C...But it's real progress in optics. Full value line of lenses.

P.S. As for me, if they would make DA50/2 pancake limited - metal and sharp instead of DA50/1.8, it would be better.

Where is new star lenses with full WR?


Last edited by ogl; 04-09-2013 at 09:18 AM.
04-09-2013, 08:15 AM - 1 Like   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
@jsherman999 :
It isn't about the market share. Pentax should indeed continue to make cameras like the K-5 II, compact, rugged, excellent ergonomics; in other words, to improve on what they have, rather than seeking entirely new directions.

Optics - I don't get it, you admit it is something to be worked on, but blame Jim for stating that?
Size - keeping things compact, maybe a small entry level for those terrified by the "bulk" of normal DSLRs? Faster, yet still compact lenses?
WR - Again, the fact that it's not done is not an argument.
Battery life - K-30 is only so-so, maybe they could improve power consumption and the way it works with AAs. It doesn't have to be something that "someone else cannot do".
"Resolution" - For the 3rd time, the fact that they have to do it is not an argument against Jim stating it.

cali92rs: it would be great if you would limit yourself to ideas, instead of making up some imaginary "Pentax can do no wrong crowd", just to preemptively silence up any counter-argument.
Things are moving slowly, indeed; oh well, I can still be patient, for a little while.
Thanks Kunzite for leaving very little room for doubt as the identity of the "Pentax can do no wrong" crowd
The argument is real simple actually. It is about marketshare because, by definition, it increases or decreases based on how many people are interested or not interested in your product. Pentax has a real small marketshare, which means that people do not have the inclination to invest in the brand. Now, if you want to get MORE people to invest in Pentax, what would be more constructive: to ask the small amount of people that are already invested in Pentax what they like about the brand, or the huge majority of people that are not invested in Pentax why they dislike the brand or are not altogether interested?
In the camrea world 19 out of 20 people own a brand other than Pentax. If they continue with their similar route (continue doing what you are already doing), how will that get more people interested??
04-09-2013, 08:24 AM   #171
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Also, marketshare is important because 3rd party manufacturers aren't going to make lenses or products for tiny brands forever (see Zeiss, Voigtlander and Tokina). This is even more important because the MAP has made buying Pentax branded gear prohibitive for a lot of folks.
04-09-2013, 08:29 AM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Thanks Kunzite for leaving very little room for doubt as the identity of the "Pentax can do no wrong" crowd
Well, if you insist talking about your imaginary friends... are you also imagining about some "Pentax can do no right" crowd?

No, it really isn't about market share; not in this context. I'm certain Jim never asked "what do you think about our tiny little market share", and Pentaxians responded "keep it as it is" It really was about the products, and Pentax makes some very fine cameras and lenses.
Talking with the current Pentax users is important, because Pentax needs to identify their strengths and build on them, market them properly. Jim will also ask ex-Pentaxians, as well as other system users, so he should get those answers. Let's give him some credit.
04-09-2013, 08:39 AM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
If by many you mean one or two....
C'mon how many people clamor for a downgrade path? That is just silly.
D400 can be something else just as the 7D mk2 won't be a downgrade from a 6D.
It has a smaller sensor. But I expect everything else to trump the low end FF offering and for a good reason, it makes BOTH cameras interesting.

The fact that the sensor is the sole benchmark for you is limited... to you. But if Pentax offered a 1fps FF with crappy AF, no newer lens, no new flash, you'd be the first to moan, wouldn't you?

04-09-2013, 08:43 AM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Well, if you insist talking about your imaginary friends... are you also imagining about some "Pentax can do no right" crowd?

No, it really isn't about market share; not in this context. I'm certain Jim never asked "what do you think about our tiny little market share", and Pentaxians responded "keep it as it is" It really was about the products, and Pentax makes some very fine cameras and lenses.
Talking with the current Pentax users is important, because Pentax needs to identify their strengths and build on them, market them properly. Jim will also ask ex-Pentaxians, as well as other system users, so he should get those answers. Let's give him some credit.
Yes, there is the Pentax can do no right crowd...and I believe they have a lot of justification in their thoughts based on the Pentax's lack of forward progress the last 2 decades.

It is about marketshare, in every context. It is very circular. You cannot get 3rd party support nor invest in R&D without money. Where is money coming from, consumers i.e. more consumers = more marketshare = more R&D = a broader product base, more lenses, more flashes etc. They are going to have to take risks.
What they are doing today, right now, will not get them more customers. You say things like "Jim will talk to more ex-pentaxians" he will do this, he will do that, WILL being the operative word. That means he has not yet done that which means he is already behind. That shouldve been done a week after Ricoh took over Pentax.
04-09-2013, 08:47 AM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
D400 can be something else just as the 7D mk2 won't be a downgrade from a 6D.
It has a smaller sensor. But I expect everything else to trump the low end FF offering and for a good reason, it makes BOTH cameras interesting.

The fact that the sensor is the sole benchmark for you is limited... to you. But if Pentax offered a 1fps FF with crappy AF, no newer lens, no new flash, you'd be the first to moan, wouldn't you?
Of course I would moan about that, you wouldnt? Is that a camera that would interest you?
FF, of course, is not the only important camera spec, but i thought that other nice features would be implied, but apparently, they need to be spelled out to you. The fact of the matter is Pentax is lags behind in AF, flash, sensor size AND lens selection. So, no it isnt just about sensor size, sorry I did not clarify that before.
04-09-2013, 09:05 AM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Yes, there is the Pentax can do no right crowd...and I believe they have a lot of justification in their thoughts based on the Pentax's lack of forward progress the last 2 decades.
You realize both crowds would easily be proven wrong with a single counter-example

Not everyone would discuss market share, each time a discussion about photography occurs. Yet market share ultimately affects our ability to properly compose a photograph

Have you made a detailed schedule for what the VP of Pentax USA should do? Does James Malcolm directly respond to you? From which position did you decide that talking with Pentaxians/ex-Pentaxians was the most important thing to do?
04-09-2013, 09:11 AM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You realize both crowds would easily be proven wrong with a single counter-example

Not everyone would discuss market share, each time a discussion about photography occurs. Yet market share ultimately affects our ability to properly compose a photograph

Have you made a detailed schedule for what the VP of Pentax USA should do? Does James Malcolm directly respond to you? From which position did you decide that talking with Pentaxians/ex-Pentaxians was the most important thing to do?
You speculate, I speculate...the fact of the matter is that you're in no better position than I am to say which direction Pentax should take. You say things like "He WILL do this and WILL do that...Ricoh WILL do this" unless you are privy to insider discussions, you are speculating as well, just guessing (pot calling kettle black).
I am basing my argument on the fact that Pentax once was a big player in the camera industry and is no longer.
You are basing your argument that everything is ok, even though Pentax is bordering on irrelevance in the camera industry.
04-09-2013, 09:31 AM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Not everyone would discuss market share, each time a discussion about photography occurs. Yet market share ultimately affects our ability to properly compose a photograph
BTW, that is a hypocritical statement...if you only want to discuss composing a photograph, there is a whole section dedicated to that. I don't know if I've ever read a post of your discussing how to compose a photograph.
04-09-2013, 09:40 AM   #179
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What exactly am I speculating about? Mr. Malcolm himself publicly said he wants to talk with ex-Pentaxians, and other brands' shooters.

It's called reductio ad absurdum, and it's a valid kind of argument. The intention was to prove that there are contexts in which it's not about market share.
I'm sure Pentax USA has no need to ask Pentaxians about market share figures, by the way.
04-09-2013, 09:42 AM   #180
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Dear Lamy, first of all, you are mistaken...You are wishful thinker.
And you don't understand and feel the context and overtone of our discussion.
Secondly, your statement is offensive and breaks the rule of this forum.
If you want to be a teacher, you chose the wrong person - I'm not your pupil

Don't forget - it's the place for another opinions and discussions. Free space.
It's offensive to tell you that negative thinking is bad for your health? Heh. That's an established fact in psychology.
Seriously, your original statement wasn't even correct. The Pentax page on FB mainly features the K30 among many other things. Which is a good thing to do, the K30 is a sweet deal.
"Q10 is the reality of new Pentax" -- that's an outright ludicrous statement.

If you want full frame now, you should just leave Pentax behind.
But it's not like Pentax is going to die just in a moment because they have a handful of compact cameras they advertise.

Ricoh took over not that long ago. Hoya left Pentax in shambles. The development process for a new camera takes about the same time that has passed since Ricoh took over. Consider how difficult the whole merging process was and you have a description of where Pentax stands right now.
There's no point in overly negative thinking right now. If you've made it through the Hoya period, can you last some more months? If not... Nikon has some pretty good cameras.
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