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04-05-2013, 01:55 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by pghwarrior23 Quote
I agree with the comment about the visible upgrade path. Everyone dreams of having the big expensive gear. There is no need to dream about it if Pentax doesn't offer it...but Nikon and Canon on the other hand...
I will agree, for small values of "everyone" .....

04-05-2013, 02:10 PM   #62
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The term enthusiast also encompasses a vast number of Pentaxians, who love their photography, and create great images with APS-C, but would like just a little more with the experience of photography. A bigger viewfinder, even more ISO range, especially at the lower end, and better SNR. These things matter to the discerning photographer, and I believe that is Pentax's core business. Their small amount of marketing has been geared towards attracting outgoing enthusiasts to the brand, and so many of these would love a dFF camera. The 645D would be great, but to me there isn't that value for money advantage it would have over the K-5, and the D800 is such a formidable contender in the game.
04-05-2013, 02:47 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raffwal Quote
Please! When this toy came out, I hated the idea of fly dropping sized sensor in a MILC. Now I can see that some obscure uses such as digiscoping could use a camera like this. But "most exciting category"? What the heck is he smoking?
Unlike some here I am no apologist for Pentax USA. That said, the Q sector has really taken off, particularly in Japan. Not everyone is a size snob, go to the Q section and take a look at a) the innovation in adapting lenses, b) the amazing magnification that is achieved, c) the incredibly small kits people have put together, and d) statement after statement from dSLR owners that it is the most fun camera they have every used - including me.

Last edited by Docrwm; 04-05-2013 at 02:52 PM.
04-05-2013, 02:51 PM - 1 Like   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It would be strange to act on Mr. Malcolm's interview (which wasn't about development of new products, Pentax USA isn't developing the new products) and ignore what the Head of Business Development at Pentax Ricoh Japan said.
I was thinking the same thing - Mr. Malcom's job is to figure out how to sell Pentax Ricoh products in one heavily saturated market, which Hoya pretty much abandoned. If he does talk to recent ship-jumpers, maybe he will hear often that FF was the cause, in which case he might have some different comments.

Pentax making a FF camera is like going to see your in-laws. It's not enough that you agree to do it - you have to sound like you are happy about it, before, during, and after.

04-05-2013, 02:57 PM   #65
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Interview

I am one of those that went with FF a while ago, but still shoot with Pentax much of the time. I have not gone for the D800 because my present FF still does what I purchased it for above what my K5 will do in certain situations.

I would buy a Pentax FF if it was offered, but if offered at the D800 price point, it would have to perform as well as the D800 for me to justify the purchase.

Tom
04-05-2013, 03:06 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
I was thinking the same thing - Mr. Malcom's job is to figure out how to sell Pentax Ricoh products in one heavily saturated market, which Hoya pretty much abandoned. If he does talk to recent ship-jumpers, maybe he will hear often that FF was the cause, in which case he might have some different comments.
Indeed, and it's a good thing he will hear not only the current Pentaxians, but also the ship-jumpers. I fully expect many of them would talk about higher-end products, not necessarily FF.
04-05-2013, 03:25 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by areidjr Quote
I have 18 lenses, 4 Pentax DSLRs and 3 compatible flash units. Already made up my mind? I've been trying very patiently to find a reason to stay with Pentax, not to jump ship. Pentax's lack of vision and upgrade path has been apparent for some time, but I have stuck by them hoping that they would soon provide an upgrade path from APS-C to Full Frame.

The comments I want to hear is something along the lines of "we hear the Pentax enthusiasts clamoring for a full frame camera and we intend to compete in that market." Not, as a follow up to a few interviewed users saying that they didn't need a full frame that "so this is kind of consistent with a lot of the research that we’ve done internally and it’s a little bit rewarding..." That comment basically throws cold water on those of us who have stuck by Pentax patiently waiting for a full frame DSLR. It's almost like he's saying to us that Pentax has no plans to provide a FF camera, so just like what we offer or just move along, because our internal research says that no one really need a full frame camera, especially from Pentax.

My mind was set to stick with Pentax, but this interview placed serious doubt in my mind that a full frame DSLR is coming at all, rather than coming in due time. That's the way I read his comments.
I look at the bright side (trained, as a Pentaxian all these years), this Jim, like Ned, very likely have no input or whatever to the product development at all. He and Ned just manage the sale, or just close to their retirement and think "hey, lets go to PENTAX and enjoy my remaining work days". But as a sale person, he successfully make me to seriously look into other FF system - now computing the cost of such move.

I totally understand your feeling. I am, one of those waiting for a FF from PENTAX.
04-05-2013, 03:29 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
They outsell sony because Sony baaaarely even plays in the DSLR world. It is obvious that they have put their top efforts into NEX. How will releasing yet another entry level camera in the crowded Rebel/D3xxx/D5xxx make a dent in the Canikon juggernaut? As for an enthusiast top end APS-C, they already had that with the K-5...did that put a dent in Canikon's marketshare? And if the K-3 is priced a few hundred dollars more than the K-5II, you think the average consumer is going to get that or the full frame D600/6D?
Based on history, the average consumer is going to get the APS one. A Nikon D400 will be extremely sucessful for its price.
It is a mistake to think that FF is an upgrade path. It isn't for most; and for everyone it also a sidestep. A high end APS camera is for those who prefer APS format. For many of those FF is no issue. There is no one way migration to FF. Theres also a migration the other way. APS is FF biggest competitor and so far it has been on the winning side saleswise. You'll see many FF owners switch to the D400 upon release....
An entry level Pentax doesn't have to make an impact on Nikon and Canon sales to be sucessful; it can sell over a million units anyway. However, an FF camera must since there are hardly enough potential Pentax FF users to make it viable otherwise.

04-05-2013, 03:32 PM   #69
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We should consider the possibility that PRIAC's input regarding how many units they think they can sell (how many they will actually order for the distributors) plays in to whether Pentax JP decides to build a product. I believe in many ways the failure of Pentax USA to effectively mange the Region has contributed mightily to the contraction of Pentax. I know a Conon dealer rep who left Pentax in 1998 for Canon because Pentax had stopped supporting dealers and reps. It is not beyond speculation to imagine that Nikon and Canon intentionally took advantage of Pentax in disarray to gather US market share - and that their present dominance is the result of those decisions 15 years ago.
04-05-2013, 03:54 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
He also said this:
"The next phase, he says, is to "find people who have abandoned the brand" and figure out why that happened."
I think the main exodus of Pentax users was towards the compact cameras, like those in the lineup of Casio and Fujifilm, because Pentax at the time didn't have a Q mount, and there was no MX-1 either. Considering Pentax's efforts in the last two years, they have finally fixed that big hole in their ship.
04-05-2013, 03:59 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
Pentax making a FF camera is like going to see your in-laws. It's not enough that you agree to do it - you have to sound like you are happy about it, before, during, and after.
This is one of the best comments I've read in a while!
04-05-2013, 04:05 PM - 1 Like   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Of course not. The volume of APS is much higher. Pentax makes 100 000's of APS DSLR's a year; a million isn't impossible. Pentax share of the DSLR marked together with FF's share of the same market clearly speaks of a few thousand units of a Pentax FF model....
With all due respect, I think you don't get it.
With an FF, Pentax will not sell 100,000 APS-C cameras and a few 1,000s FF cameras,
but they will sell 200,000+ APS-C cameras and a few 1,000s FF cameras.

Making of a FF camera is best marketing they can do, think of, or legitimately buy.
It's far better to spend a $50M for the development of a FF system than spend $50M in marketing of all mid-range APS-C cameras together. The amount of buzz created around a Pentax FF will be worth $100M spent in marketing.

Last edited by Uluru; 04-05-2013 at 04:12 PM.
04-05-2013, 04:09 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
With all due respect, I think you don't get it.
With an FF, Pentax will not sell 100,000 APS-C cameras and a few 1,000s FF cameras,
but they will sell 200,000+ APS-C cameras and a few 1,000s FF cameras.
I don't think you understood what I wrote! I never said Pentax would make 100 000 APS cameras. I said they would make hundreds of thousands (something they already do).
04-05-2013, 04:22 PM - 2 Likes   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Your statement is grossly incorrect. The Return on Invested Capital required to justify releasing a FF System cannot be met at such low volumes as a Pentax would generate, though the mark-up would be significantly higher than a high volume camera. ...

At this time it is not clear to me that Pentax has the volume or will ever have the volume to earn a profit directly from a Full Frame camera system. That doesn't mean they will not choose to intentionally lose money on such a system for 2nd derivative business reasons, but losing money on a product category is a strategic choice - a business risk - not a tactical product decision.
"Grossly incorrect." Now that's amusing. I think that you misunderstand both my post and the nature of the business.

First, the purpose of a FF system is not primarily to earn profits from the sale of a full frame camera. The purpose is to retain profitable high-spending customers who want the option of full frame and are unwilling to invest in a system that does not provide that option. For some time I was purchasing a lot of Pentax equipment. While I haven't yet switched, I have stopped buying Pentax gear altogether. I know others who have done the same. I have spent far more on photo equipment than most consumers, and expect to spend many thousand of dollars in the future, but I will be switching unless Pentax offers a full frame option. I believe that Pentax will continue to lose high-spending customers if they stay on their current track, especially given the declining cost of full frame cameras from competitors. Your initial statement seems particularly bizarre given that you later acknowledge (in the second part of your post) that the introduction of a full frame camera system might be profitable for the company due to what you call "2nd derivative business reasons" (which is one of those phrases that financial analysts love, but that has no real significance). All that matters is whether it is profitable for the company. I am claiming that the retention of high-spending customers is important for Pentax, and that their current path will cause them to to lose such customers. This may or may not be correct, but you have not provided any evidence that contradicts either of those claims.

Second, your assertions regarding the volumes necessary to profit from the development of a full frame camera system are just that: assertions. There are many parts of a full-frame system that can share development costs with APS-C, including longer focal length lenses and most accessories. Many parts of a full frame camera can also be borrowed from their other cameras. As usual, you have stated your case a bit too strongly, without qualification, and without any facts to back it up.

Your bold pronouncements remind me of an experience I had as a graduate student. I was asked to review the notes for a talk that my mentor was giving at a meeting of the American Finance Association. At one point he had jotted in the margins "Data weak on this point--speak loudly!" That seems to be your modus operandi, both with this post and many others pertaining to the business of photography.

Dan
04-05-2013, 04:23 PM   #75
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First of all I'm waiting for a lot of people to eat their hats. The mp race is over and the sensor size war is heating up. Full frame offers clear advantages that aps-c will never overcome. Fuji is now contemplating a full frame x-trans, and if that tech matures some more it might have a lot of promise imo. Let me say this: I talked personally to jim malcolm on the phone for a half hour. We more chatted than anything. We talked about full frame. Pentax knows this is where the market is heading. Even full frame compacts are a growing market potentially. Sony saw this with the rx100. They are also *surprise* considering full frame nex now. To me none of this makes much sense personally. A nex is not a good design for full frame imo. The lenses can't be smaller anymore. Pentax knows how to produce small full frame lenses and they would be wise to do so. From my talk with Jim, pentax seems comitted to unique compact solutions. He felt that the q was marketed to the wrong audience initially. Though I think the k mount adaptation opens some interesting doors.... we talked about cameras mostly and what we liked. It wasn't all that formal to be honest. We talked about full frame too. I'm pretty convinced at what he said that they will expand into full frame territory somehow. They seem very intent on abolishing the AA filter as well. He also really liked his mx-1 and honestly I kind of want one too. Personally I'm happy with pentax. I love old primes and their modern lenses are mostly very good to excellent. I think there are some gaps in their system personally, but I'm more than ok with filling those wholes with some classic smc primes. I love the unique rendering their lenses give. Unfortunately most pros buy a system for its lenses and that's why pentax gets overlooked often I think. There are plenty of people out there in conikon land that are pros and using aps-c still. The d7100 is a stellar camera and if the k-3 can equal that in IQ, I would easily be more than ok with that kind of upgrade personally I think if you are that unhappy go find a system that you like. I wish I had some magical answer for all of you that are ready to give up on pentax, but all I can say is ricoh truly intends on competing very fiercely with sony and taking over the number 3 spot. That's no small order. Ricoh has some cash to invest, unlike hoya, so I would expect some big products to come along. The rumor mill is in full tilt lately. Something interesting is coming. A k-3 or 645D upgrade would both be exciting. Give them time. A good systtem isn't just thrown togethether in a few months time. Also sorry for any typos. Its impossible to edit on this phone. Can't even see what I am typing lol.

Last edited by Ash; 04-06-2013 at 02:46 AM.
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