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04-05-2013, 04:34 PM   #76
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Yeah, you're probably right. Then again, Pentax are either gross incompetents or they know something we don't know, else they should have released a FF camera by now. And since you clearly know the camera manufacturing business I will welcome enlightenment at your earliest convenience.


Last edited by monochrome; 04-05-2013 at 04:41 PM.
04-05-2013, 04:36 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by zosxavius Quote
First of all I'm waiting for a lot of people to eat their hats. The mp race is over and the sensor size war is heating up. Full frame offers clear advantages that aps-c will never overcome.l.
There is no size war. FF cameras do not increase in sales according to sales data. The market isn't really going anywhere except expanding. Hence, new niches are being filled. Manufactures put all kinds of sensors in all kinds of cameras because they can
The argument that FF has advantages that APS can never overcome is pointless. MF have advantages FF can't overcome. APS have advantages...etc. So what? As long as cameras meet customers demand they will sell.
The is no holy format that everyone and everything will gravitate towards.
04-05-2013, 04:38 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Well then Pentax are either gross incompetents or they know something we don't know, else they should have released a FF camera by now. And since you clearly know the camera manufacturing business I will welcome enlightenment at your earliest convenience.
The reason Pentax haven't realeased an FF camera so far is because it hasn't been seen as financially viable (as you well know). This can of course change. They have had FF camera since 2001.
04-05-2013, 04:48 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The reason Pentax haven't realeased an FF camera so far is because it hasn't been seen as financially viable (as you well know). This can of course change. They have had FF camera since 2001.
But I have allowed myself to get annoyed and be a jerk, so my bad.

04-05-2013, 04:59 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
There is no size war. FF cameras do not increase in sales according to sales data. The market isn't really going anywhere except expanding. Hence, new niches are being filled. Manufactures put all kinds of sensors in all kinds of cameras because they can
The argument that FF has advantages that APS can never overcome is pointless. MF have advantages FF can't overcome. APS have advantages...etc. So what? As long as cameras meet customers demand they will sell.
The is no holy format that everyone and everything will gravitate towards.
A lot of people are convinced that full frame is all they want. Problem is that it isn't completely affordable for a lot of them. It doesn't matter that the difference is only marginal in terms of end result IQ. They are convinced that it is better and they want it. Personally I've grown to like aps-c, but that's me. I started out digitally, so ultimately had no attachment to full frame from the start. That said my 28mm and 50mm would be more useful on FF for sure. These companies are all trying to outdo each other regardless of what people want or need. But people want full frame. If they could choose between the two for the same price, what would they pick? Maybe sensor size war isn't the appropriate phrase. But that's all my opinion and conjecture. I could be wrong. It does happen.

@monochrome: pentax debuted a FF camera. I think hoya killed off the project and canned FF to keep production costs down. The FF market was initially very tiny compared to now. If you ask me the D600 and 6D are very disruptive cameras. Its no secret that canon and nikon always wanted to get away from aps-c. Sensor costs keep going down as the technology matures. I don't see aps-c going anywhere soon, but I do see a lot of photographers looking to finally switch to full frame because its becoming within their reach and that says something I think. I would love a FF camera if anything for wide angles and landscapes. If I could afford it, I would easily buy a 645. I agree that its pointless to debate formats, but I would be shocked to learn that the full frame market is not growing. I know a lot of people looking to switch or have switched with the 5dmk2. Canon has been pushing the body cost down steadily for a while. The nikon camera is kind of interesting. I think canon forced their hand on that one. Look I could ramble on and on. I just take pictures with a fairly limited budget. That's why I'm here actually. In canikon land nothing good is rarely cheap imo. A full frame camera would give me easier access to the focal lengths I want, but that kind of money would honestly be better spent on some nicer glass. I guess when you all dump pentax I'll be in heaven. Something tells me the sky isn't falling and pentax glass just gets more valuable, so go out and take some pictures or something. I would be sad to hear that they didn't do a kmount dslr, but i do think they need to do something that is interesting and different to be competetive. Fuji is really looking attractive to a lot of people right now with their xpro. Its not for me, but pentax needs something as radical as that to stay relevant if you ask me...
04-05-2013, 05:08 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Yeah, you're probably right. Then again, Pentax are either gross incompetents or they know something we don't know, else they should have released a FF camera by now. And since you clearly know the camera manufacturing business I will welcome enlightenment at your earliest convenience.
I certainly have not said that they should have released a FF camera in the past. The issue of timing is important. It's quite possible that Sony entered the FF market too soon. Surely you will acknowledge that the economics of FF sensors and cameras has been changing. I do believe that Pentax should release a FF camera in the near future. We will soon find out whether Pentax agrees with me. Whichever direction they take, we will also find out if it was successful.

I continue to be puzzled by your rhetoric. Even if Pentax makes the wrong decision (whatever that may be), how does this make Pentax "gross incompetents"? Regardless of which approach proves to be the best, isn't it possible that the correct decision is not obvious? People and companies often face difficult decisions. Sometimes they make the correct decision and sometimes they don't, but unless the correct decision is obvious they should not be accused of "gross incompetence". Since you say that you welcome my "enlightement", here are a couple of tidbits that you may find helpful: (1) tone down the rhetoric; and (2) be open to the possibility that those who disagree with you are not "grossly incorrect" or "gross incompetents". Things are not always so obvious. Of course I could use to take my own advice, since I am also guilty at times of overly heated rhetoric and insufficient openness to the ideas of others.

Dan

Last edited by Dan; 04-05-2013 at 05:15 PM.
04-05-2013, 05:09 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
You'll see many FF owners switch to the D400 upon release....
If by many you mean one or two....
C'mon how many people clamor for a downgrade path? That is just silly.
04-05-2013, 05:10 PM   #83
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If pentax came out with a $3k FF dslr, I don't think it would it would set the world on fire unless it was somehow spectacular. An average D600 class FF wouldn't do it for a lot of people either I think. They need something really interesting. I'm just looking forward to hearing more announcements. New product is exciting if nothing else and gets the press buzzing. I want to see pentax survive. I love my k-5 and would be pretty happy with a filterless 24mp camera. That would keep me going for some time. I would rather see them spend some time on something truly unique. The FF market is still mostly small in comparison to the hugely growing mirrorless market. (m4/3 was a missed op for pentax imo) So really, the Q makes the most sense in a way. The slr style design is pentax's hallmark, so I don't see it going anywhere, just maybe them evolving other ideas into new markets.

04-05-2013, 06:59 PM - 3 Likes   #84
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The one good part of the interview is that Jim Malcolm gets that Pentaxians are passionate.

The rest is extremely disappointing, AFAIC. Let me summarise:
  • They see no point in offering an FF model. (Either he ignored some voices, pre-selected interviewees, or there was some really off-chance bias in the interviewees; I don't believe for a second that his "Pentaxians love APS-C and reject FF"-message is representative. N.B. the Facebook screenshot of Jim's offer to talk to Pentaxians shows one user question: "When comes FF?" and there are four more such requests in the original Facebook thread out of 35+ contributors).
  • They don't want to compete on price (but instead liase with the dying breed of B&M shops that need big margins)
  • They don't advertise in any significant way (not part of the interview but a fact).
And then they ask themselves why customers leave the brand.

Really?

The only consolation I'm taking away from this interview that it was Pentax USA talking and that there is very good reason to believe that Japan thinks differently about FF.

If Pentax USA thinks they can establish Ricoh and Pentax (in that order; Jim seems to be much more excited about Ricoh products than Pentax products) as a boutique brand in the USA with high margins with no upgrade path for K-mount users then good luck with that. I just hope Japan will produce some killer products that even Pentax USA will be able to sell.

Last edited by Class A; 04-06-2013 at 12:16 AM.
04-05-2013, 07:41 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
But the problem is that Nikon and Canon have a particularly hard grip
The opportunity is that only two manufacturers have 90% of the pie.
04-05-2013, 08:17 PM   #86
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My real point, though inelegantly and impertinently stated, is that it appears the current market demands an entire FF system, not just a camera body. For Pentax to develop a full system would, in my opinion (and that of securities market analysts) require a significant and long-term commitment of capital. The commitment would need to be so large (according to securities market analysts) that it would negatively affect Ricoh's profits over the intermediate term, not just Pentax's Income contribution to Ricoh.

I'm not saying Ricoh won't make the commitment, but I've written on many posts that the finances of producing a FF system at Pentax's market share and Ricoh's current financial condition are at least daunting. Pentax has been in this position for years - as you cxorrectly stated, the decision isn't easy nor clear. It is my belief that the old Pentax was somewhat risk-averse; we had thought Ricoh was our savior with their capital and bold early statements about competing with Canon and Nikon. Yet we are still where we were.

Something is and has been holding Pentax back or the camera would be in our hands..

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Quote
I certainly have not said that they should have released a FF camera in the past. The issue of timing is important. It's quite possible that Sony entered the FF market too soon. Surely you will acknowledge that the economics of FF sensors and cameras has been changing. I do believe that Pentax should release a FF camera in the near future. We will soon find out whether Pentax agrees with me. Whichever direction they take, we will also find out if it was successful.

I continue to be puzzled by your rhetoric. Even if Pentax makes the wrong decision (whatever that may be), how does this make Pentax "gross incompetents"? Regardless of which approach proves to be the best, isn't it possible that the correct decision is not obvious? People and companies often face difficult decisions. Sometimes they make the correct decision and sometimes they don't, but unless the correct decision is obvious they should not be accused of "gross incompetence". Since you say that you welcome my "enlightement", here are a couple of tidbits that you may find helpful: (1) tone down the rhetoric; and (2) be open to the possibility that those who disagree with you are not "grossly incorrect" or "gross incompetents". Things are not always so obvious. Of course I could use to take my own advice, since I am also guilty at times of overly heated rhetoric and insufficient openness to the ideas of others.

Dan
04-05-2013, 08:28 PM   #87
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Yes, Hoya. It's rather simple. Hoya only wanted the medical imaging so they essentially gutted Pentax Camera Division by cutting off development and firing the best of the best of their staff (some of whom are now designing FF lenses for Tamron BTW). It's not really that complicated. Prior to that Pentax made some rather slow decisions that were poorly executed and that is how they came to be a part of Hoya in the first instance.

As for huge investments. Perhaps, but not necessarily. As has been stated MANY times, most of the components for a FF are shared in common with APS-C format cameras. Some had thought Ricoh a Xavior, others of us were not singing hymns. My hope is that Pentax will proceed with expanding its line and offering broader and deeper selection. I am NOT a FF focused photographer. I simply believe that Pentax can not live long being neither hot nor cold, fish nor fowl. They have to commit, or perish. It really is that simple with the changing technology.
04-05-2013, 09:33 PM - 1 Like   #88
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This is becoming another 24 pages long FF thread. All because Jim wasn't more careful about nuances and poured a cold shower over many passionate about the brand's future.

You bet Pentaxians are more passionate bunch than Sony users, and this might have surprised Jim a little. But he deserves a passionate and a direct into face answers, and opinions too. Pentaxians will more likely to take any such statement of his slightly out of context and hyperbolise it into another doom and gloom scenario because they have learned that Pentax, this way or other, simply does not listen. Pentax takes a hyperbolical distance from issues, thus Pentax users compensate with hyperbolical responses.

That some users think Pentax doesn't listen is justifiable, because none of the desires and issues that truly concern the K-mount never happen to be solved, even remotely. But everything else does.
- No one asks for Q, Q comes. And it's not only a camera, but a new mount! (so it's easier to develop a whole new mount than improve burning issues in a current one?)
- Thousands of K-mount film users with legacy glass ask for digital FF option, and then 645D comes.
- People ask for official SDM issue response, it never comes.
- People ask for flash system improvement, it never gets answered.
- People ask for significant AF upgrade, it hardly comes.

The general perception, as I see from this forum and many others, is that even under Ricoh the attitude of non-responsiveness doesn't change.
The silence is even more unnerving. It's been almost two years since the acquisition by Ricoh; do we need a line of executives like Jim to start 'assembling' data from scratch each new term to fetch the glowing issues for once? If Jim resigns tomorrow, shall we wait for a new Jim with an empty whiteboard and starting new Facebok threads about "tell me about Pentax.."?
Adding to that not so well thought out responses form such executives, are we at all surprised that PF and many others forums will be red hot?

Last edited by Uluru; 04-05-2013 at 10:11 PM.
04-05-2013, 10:36 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
Hi guys,

Just wanted to share this interview with Jim Malcolm, Ned Bunnell's replacement at Pentax/Ricoh.

An Interview with Pentax Executive Vice President Jim Malcolm - DigitalCameraInfo.com

Hope you enjoy.
From that interview it sounds as it the integration process with Ricoh has taken longer than anyone expected. On FF the guy simply wasn't giving anything away, one way or the other. Nor did the two senior Japanese guys interviewed recently. No doubt a lot of development work has been done on a FF camera. But launching one requires a huge long-term investment in FF-compatible lens production. It wouldn't surprise me at all if took a long time to get such a major strategic decision made. It's a lot more than just a marketing gesture to benefit the range as a whole, although I can see the argument for that. Anyway, Japanese companies are 'top down' in their management culture, and if the head of the US distribution arm hasn't been 'authorised' to talk about an upcoming FF range, he just isn't going to do it, whatever forum members might want.

A FF system could be announced in weeks. Or it might never be announced. Neither would surprise me on the evidence we have (or don't have).

Pentax's priority at the moment (I would guess, given the unsettled history) is to show some decent figures with what they have got. That way they will gain the credibility they must need within the Ricoh group to get the capital that would be needed for a FF line with any depth.
04-05-2013, 11:03 PM - 2 Likes   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by timo Quote
From that interview it sounds as it the integration process with Ricoh has taken longer than anyone expected.
It can mean they are running out of excuses. Fact s, they have released NOTHING new and wholly developed under the Ricoh reign (even the MX-1 suggests it was started before).
The next excuse will be that due to the 2012 end of world frenzy, half of their development team withdrew into wilderness and refuse to come back.
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