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04-21-2013, 07:37 AM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
well it is understandable why Sigma is cutting pentax out of the market - the Ricoh GR/GXR is competing head to head with the DP2 series cameras.
That seems like a rather tenuous connection to me. You could say that Pentax DSLR's have competed with Sigma DSLR's for years, and with Canon and Nikon and Sony too for that matter. But that never stopped them from supporting K-mount in the past. I think that if Sigma finds it profitable to manufacture K-mount lenses, they would continue to do so.

I think the theory that it's just too small of a market share probably holds more water. But I don't think it's a matter of there being less Pentax users today than there were a few years ago. I think it has more to do with the evolution of Sigma as a lens maker.

If Sigma only has limited manufacturing capacity, and they are able to sell every lens they make to Canon and Nikon users, then why bother with Pentax lenses. Especially when there's a chance those lenses may linger on the shelves or in the warehouse, unsold. Witness the recent situation with the large number of NOS (New Old Stock) Sigma 50-150mm f/2.8 lenses that Sigma recently liquidated at wholesale prices on their Outlet store after collecting dust in the warehouse for years. You could say that Sigma has been burned in the past by supporting Pentax.

I would also look at Sigma's new strategy in the last few years to transform from a budget alternative lens maker, to a first-class competitor in the lens market. And when you look at the accolades Sigma is getting in the press and online for some of its newer lens designs such as the 35mm 1.4, 85mm 1.4, 120-300mm 2.8, 500mm 4.5, etc. it seems like they are succeeding in turning that old reputation around. Which means that Canon and Nikon users who avoided Sigma in the past will now start to consider them. So suddenly Sigma has a huge pool of Canon and Nikon customers, and it no longer makes sense to devote development, distribution, and manufacturing resources to the rather-niche K-mount.


Last edited by Edgar_in_Indy; 04-21-2013 at 10:33 PM.
04-21-2013, 11:12 AM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote

From there it's kind of a "vicious circle" Pentax Ricoh will have to break: limited market share of K mount --> limited third-party offer in K mount --> limited appeal of K mount --> limited market share and so on.
Indeed. It's a serious issue too. I rarely consider other brands of DSLR, but the lack of K mount for this exciting 18-35/1.8 has caused me to.
04-21-2013, 12:46 PM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by Smeggypants Quote
Indeed. It's a serious issue too. I rarely consider other brands of DSLR, but the lack of K mount for this exciting 18-35/1.8 has caused me to.
Same here. I think that Pentax currently represents a better value-proposition than other brands, especially when you don't need to worry about buying stabilized lenses, but if the K-mount starts to get left behind with the newer generation of lenses, then I'll have to reconsider my system. Perhaps the only reason they have offered so much value for the money is because it's a position they've been forced into by crushing competition from the bigger players.

I came very close selling it all and switching to m43 when the E-M5 came out, but in the end my money went to the K-30. But if the stable of good, affordable m43 lenses keeps growing as it has been the last few years, while the selection of K-mount lenses shrinks, then I might go the other way next time. I'll be keeping a close eye on the next generation or two of OM-D cameras, as well as the lenses. I hate to say it since I love my K-30 (and my K-x before), but it seems that while m43's star is ascending, Pentax is waning.
04-21-2013, 01:36 PM   #154
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Pentax still have a far stronger lens lineup than m4/3, including third party lenses, many of which are less useful on m4/3 due to the increased crop.

Still, Oly and Panasonic have been working on producing good quality small primes, traditionally a Pentax strength, while Pentax have taken to producing little more than mediocre zooms of late, and even cutting lenses from the lineup. That's a great shame, especially when you consider how good Pentax cameras are these days.

In the end, this new lens is somewhat unique, and due to that it will be a more significant omission than others would be.

04-21-2013, 02:08 PM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Yes, it's like f/2.8 on FF, but no, it's not like 24-50 - it's equivalent to 28-54 on Nikon or 29-56 on Canon. 24mm and 28mm is quite a difference...
True; I shouldn't have been so quick to type.
04-21-2013, 10:19 PM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
I would also look at Sigma's new strategy in the last few years to transform from a budget alternative lens maker, to a first-class competitor in the lens market.
You do have a point - but the way I see it, the increase in fixed lens-large sensor compacts have been a battleground for some time now - the DP2 cameras are just as much of a niche product as the Pentax K-01 and the GR digital cameras. Sigma may want some elbow room and the best way to clear house is to simply shut out a niche competitor. Sigma can't take on Leica - they would get flattened Sigma cannot hold a candle to the optical excellence of the M, R and S series lenses and the S2 and the upcoming Leica M body. Olympus has better marketing and the OM-D has quite a following, many EVIL makers are married to the 4:3 sensor size - so that isn't a threat, even with the financial woes Olympus has experienced in the past few years, Panasonic is too big for Sigma to take on alone - same goes for Fuji.

Sigma DSLR cameras are a bit of a joke to me - certainly there are some great photographers using them, but there is nothing that they can do that no other manufacturers SLR cameras cannot.

QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
it no longer makes sense to devote development, distribution, and manufacturing resources to the rather-niche K-mount.
Exactly - shut out one manufacturer, and it will cut away at their market share - sounds like a good business strategy to me.
04-23-2013, 05:40 AM   #157
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QuoteQuote:
The lens will initially be made available in Canon, Nikon and Sigma mounts, as tends to be the case from Sigma. We wouldn't rule out Sony and Pentax models appearing in future.
Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 DC HSM Preview: Digital Photography Review
04-23-2013, 10:31 PM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
What does that mean? Are you suggesting that Pentax took actions to intentionally discourage or prevent Sigma and Tamron from continuing to release lenses in K-mount?
Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant that PRIC may not need Sigma or Tamron in their business plan. Ricoh cannot have hoped to rely on third party manufacturers to make their new acquisition a success. Ricoh have stated that they plan on competing with Canon and Nikon toe-to-toe. They have already won in the copier segment against Canon, and have more than double the turnover of Nikon. This would indicate that they have a success-based mentality, and the economic ability to fuel that.

I just visited the Pentax body factory, and they are investing in improving the facility further. It all looks positive to me.

04-23-2013, 11:17 PM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
I just visited the Pentax body factory, and they are investing in improving the facility further. It all looks positive to me.
I don't suppose they actually allowed you inside did they?
04-24-2013, 12:27 AM - 2 Likes   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
I don't suppose they actually allowed you inside did they?
Indeed they did. They were very kind and accommodating.

After they found out that I was more of a fan of their company and products than an average passing tourist, two of the senior Japanese managers were informed and they had the generosity to come out and introduce themselves personally.

My wife and I were given a company presentation in the conference room, followed by a brief tour around the plant. Of course we were asked not to photograph anything on the production side.

They have a wall-mounted history of all the cameras manufactured there since the plant opened in the early 90's, including blown-up models of the 645D and K-5 showing every last part. Complex machines!

I only saw yellow K-30s being manufactured, all in a first-rate cleanroom environment. Even if I had seen something else, it would be a betrayal of their kind hospitality in showing us around to post it here.

It was a fascinating and very enjoyable visit.

*I should add I didn't just turn up at their doorstep and expect to be welcomed. I was staying at the sort of boutique resort where nothing is too much trouble (abaca Cebu), and they made all the arrangements the day before.
04-24-2013, 12:54 AM - 1 Like   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
Indeed they did. They were very kind and accommodating.

After they found out that I was more of a fan of their company and products than an average passing tourist, two of the senior Japanese managers were informed and they had the generosity to come out and introduce themselves personally.

My wife and I were given a company presentation in the conference room, followed by a brief tour around the plant. Of course we were asked not to photograph anything on the production side.

They have a wall-mounted history of all the cameras manufactured there since the plant opened in the early 90's, including blown-up models of the 645D and K-5 showing every last part. Complex machines!

I only saw yellow K-30s being manufactured, all in a first-rate cleanroom environment. Even if I had seen something else, it would be a betrayal of their kind hospitality in showing us around to post it here.

It was a fascinating and very enjoyable visit.

*I should add I didn't just turn up at their doorstep and expect to be welcomed. I was staying at the sort of boutique resort where nothing is too much trouble (abaca Cebu), and they made all the arrangements the day before.
Thanks for the reply and I must say that it's very disappointing that you are such an ethical person.
04-24-2013, 05:11 AM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
Indeed they did. They were very kind and accommodating.

After they found out that I was more of a fan of their company and products than an average passing tourist, two of the senior Japanese managers were informed and they had the generosity to come out and introduce themselves personally.

My wife and I were given a company presentation in the conference room, followed by a brief tour around the plant. Of course we were asked not to photograph anything on the production side.
They found out you were more than a fan, so company executives came out to personally meet you and then set up a company presentation and then a personal tour of the plant for just you and your wife?

(How did they find out you were more than a fan, what does that mean? Are you either someone famous, or had a potential direct economic impact on their business?)

QuoteQuote:
...
*I should add I didn't just turn up at their doorstep and expect to be welcomed. I was staying at the sort of boutique resort where nothing is too much trouble (abaca Cebu), and they made all the arrangements the day before.
Looks like a nice place, Take any pictures there?

.
04-24-2013, 08:32 AM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
They found out you were more than a fan, so company executives came out to personally meet you and then set up a company presentation and then a personal tour of the plant for just you and your wife?

(How did they find out you were more than a fan, what does that mean? Are you either someone famous, or had a potential direct economic impact on their business?)



Looks like a nice place, Take any pictures there?

.
Yes, we met two of the senior executives, and it seemed they were senior (I have worked full-time in Asia for 25 years, I behave politely and interested and actually 99% of the time genuinely enjoy their company). Certainly a higher ratio than in Europe or the US.

They even kindly gave us a gift (in Pentax wrapping paper) and posed for photos (taken by a lovely assistant with a K-30). She also took photos of us in the manufacturing area corridors, but those are for PRIC to chose to do with as they will. I have been on South Korean, Chinese and Spanish TV; none with much warning. Fine by me. Only 3 countries, so I'm certainly not famous! ;-)

I did take some pictures at abaca. There are already plenty online of the resort, but my favourites were when we chartered a boat and went to some islands. Stunning.

Last edited by Unsinkable II; 04-24-2013 at 08:44 AM.
04-24-2013, 01:13 PM - 1 Like   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
Yes, we met two of the senior executives, and it seemed they were senior (I have worked full-time in Asia for 25 years, I behave politely and interested and actually 99% of the time genuinely enjoy their company). Certainly a higher ratio than in Europe or the US.

They even kindly gave us a gift (in Pentax wrapping paper) and posed for photos (taken by a lovely assistant with a K-30). She also took photos of us in the manufacturing area corridors, but those are for PRIC to chose to do with as they will. I have been on South Korean, Chinese and Spanish TV; none with much warning. Fine by me. Only 3 countries, so I'm certainly not famous! ;-)

I did take some pictures at abaca. There are already plenty online of the resort, but my favourites were when we chartered a boat and went to some islands. Stunning.
You may have detected a small element of disbelief in my questions - I perhaps should apologize for that, but there were a few things that individually appeared fine, but when taken together seemed to paint an odd picture. Maybe not paint, but suggest, or at least leave the door open to.

(...some apparently upsetting incongruities mentioned here, since edited by me ...)

Now, after reading your reply, I don't know if any of this suspicion on my part is justified, it's just that I had this nagging feeling at first that we were encountering someone trying to be:




Again - I have no reason to believe you're making anything up, it just reminded me of wendyb or student... for a moment. Ask me about them sometime



.

Last edited by jsherman999; 04-24-2013 at 10:39 PM.
04-24-2013, 06:02 PM   #165
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Good God.

All it takes is money and good manners.

I don't know how much of each you have, but you can use some and do exactly as I did.

All it required was a request to the resort manager over dinner on Sunday night and an appointment was arranged to visit Pentax on our way to the airport on Tuesday morning.

Also, please have the good manners to read what I wrote. You have misquoted me in both of your posts.
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