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05-04-2013, 09:52 AM   #256
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Whining about expensive Pentax lenses has been around from day one (1995 I think I joined the first Pentax forum). But the truth is that hardly any brand of lenses keep their value as well as Pentax better (and more expensive) lenses. Eg. I bought the A* 135/1.8 for $350 and sold it for $1400. The FA* 200/4 ED IF Macro sold for a bit over $1000 when new accompanied by much whining. Now its sell for up to $3800 on e-bay. The cheap guys opted for Sigma and lost money; the rest of us got the best lenses money could buy a often make a profit as well should we be stupid enough to sell them...
Maybe Pentax lenses have held their value so well because the new ones have escalated in price so much. Now that prices for new Pentax lenses have eclipsed comparable Nikon lenses, they might not be the reasonable investment they once were.

05-04-2013, 10:35 AM   #257
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
As for the "saving money by switching brands"; it just depends. Think of both Canon and Nikon as having nearly limitless systems. Systems based on having nearly every single focal length covered on numerous bases, having truly professional flash options, better close-up options, etc... Pentax got far too limiting even before the price increases. Add to that the durability and longevity of the competition. Add more maybe?? How about the Pentax target audience; which nowadays almost seems like a very mild step beyond point and shoot. Sure there are exceptions, but this is basically how Pentax views most of their sales.

But it could be worse. Imagine having a 4/3's system that does cost as much as the Olympus; a much smaller sensor at a much higher price. To make it even worse, the complete lack of a true lens system for the Olympus. All those people that own Olympus giving new meaning to Olympus has fallen
False dichotomy about limitless systems. If that were the case, only Canikon would exist. Leica would not. Fuji and Sony would cease as well. Only the 1% have a limitless wallet.

Probably my deciding factor for Pentax was AA batteries (and a lousy warranty experience with Nikon...the bastar$s).

I concur that Pentax does not have a target audience. They have been all over the map. The K200D/20D system looked to be on track, but then the K-m in bling colors came out and Hoya went all schoolgirl on us just as that meme had its day.

Ricoh is beter focussed (sic) with the GR series. The Ricoh PX could use a better sensor and video making it a viable companion for those who are leery about taking a cameraphone anywhere. Hopefully Ricoh's DNA will make it into Pentax rather than all this flailing about on a DSLR line without focus (again, sic).

If Pentax offered a better warranty and WR more consistently they'd differentiate, play to their known engineering strengths, and be able to justify the higher prices. Just marking everything up is flailing about...again.
05-04-2013, 02:17 PM   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tonto Quote
The deal with brick and morter stores is they usually just show the rrp unless they are advertising trying to clear something- reason is everyone is willing to drop the price and keeps a competitor undercuting by a doller just by checking the website.
So if you want a good price locally just refer to the Pentax shop or B&H website for example and they should come to the party. A lot of the time they will just get a reimbursement from Pentax anyway.
I can't tell you how many times I've mentioned B&H prices to no avail. Things are probably different now though as the Pentax Australia Web Store probably allows stores to negotiate directly with CRK using their own online prices as leverage. In the past CRK was only prepared to try to mach Sigma prices. CRK also insists on new orders for most new prices so even if a store has a unit in stock they still require that store to make a new order for the same item in most cases.
05-04-2013, 02:24 PM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
I can't tell you how many times I've mentioned B&H prices to no avail
Yep, and the their reply normally is along the lines of - "We don't match online (or import) prices"

05-04-2013, 06:23 PM   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by TOUGEFC Quote
Yep, and the their reply normally is along the lines of - "We don't match online (or import) prices"
If I speak to the distributor I usually get a lecture about how we've got a higher standard of living to the USA ,minimum wage, health care etc... but that doesn't justify 2x the price of anything.
05-05-2013, 04:19 AM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
False dichotomy about limitless systems. If that were the case, only Canikon would exist. Leica would not. Fuji and Sony would cease as well. Only the 1% have a limitless wallet.

Probably my deciding factor for Pentax was AA batteries (and a lousy warranty experience with Nikon...the bastar$s).

I concur that Pentax does not have a target audience. They have been all over the map. The K200D/20D system looked to be on track, but then the K-m in bling colors came out and Hoya went all schoolgirl on us just as that meme had its day.

Ricoh is beter focussed (sic) with the GR series. The Ricoh PX could use a better sensor and video making it a viable companion for those who are leery about taking a cameraphone anywhere. Hopefully Ricoh's DNA will make it into Pentax rather than all this flailing about on a DSLR line without focus (again, sic).

If Pentax offered a better warranty and WR more consistently they'd differentiate, play to their known engineering strengths, and be able to justify the higher prices. Just marking everything up is flailing about...again.
Leica exists only for a small number of reasons. Not sure which would qualify as the number one reason; so I'll make it a tie between... Leica is the Swiss watch of cameras. Nothing can match the sound and feel of a Leica. The second tie reason - that Leica has some of the best optics in the world; even considerably better than Nikon or Canon. The only thing that comes close is some of the Zeiss glass that is offered for some camera mounts.

And in terms of capability; if it cannot be done with a Canon or Nikon; chances are that it cannot be done - without a truly customized camera.
05-05-2013, 01:29 PM   #262
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
Leica exists only for a small number of reasons. Not sure which would qualify as the number one reason; so I'll make it a tie between... Leica is the Swiss watch of cameras. Nothing can match the sound and feel of a Leica. The second tie reason - that Leica has some of the best optics in the world; even considerably better than Nikon or Canon. The only thing that comes close is some of the Zeiss glass that is offered for some camera mounts..
And where is Pentax in that list? ... c c c c ....
Naughty boy ... naughty.
05-05-2013, 06:07 PM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
And where is Pentax in that list
Well over the years; one has had the capability of adding Zeiss glass in the PK mount. As far as I can recollect, most of the Zeiss PK is also manual focus.

Pentax does make some very limited good glass, but out of the entire Pentax glass line - it's rare. Throughout recent history Pentax usually limits the size and weight of their lenses; and this bypasses a bit of the quality aspect.

So where is Pentax in a list...

Behind: Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc... Perhaps a tie for fourth in the market, maybe fifth. But also losing ground each and every day. Sure camera sales in general will increase, because population numbers and market reach also increase.

Pentax has really got to do a number of things... Increase marketing, get more camera bodies out there; especially full frame and at a price that is close to the entry level Nikon full frame, get considerably more lenses with both Pentax labels on them and also more incentive for more third party releases, and also get more products in general out there.

05-06-2013, 07:15 AM   #264
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Sorry, but the "recent" Pentax Lenses have a huge value-drop after they have been bought.

I bought a Da*300 for arround 999€ (1308€) and it was a special offer. Now, i can be lucky to sell it for around 600€ maybe (with a lot of luck 700)

I think pentax's marketshare has reached a limit where the limited amount of customers limit the resell value.
05-06-2013, 07:35 AM   #265
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
Well over the years; one has had the capability of adding Zeiss glass in the PK mount. As far as I can recollect, most of the Zeiss PK is also manual focus.
That is correct. The AF Zeiss lenses are for Sony.

QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
Throughout recent history Pentax usually limits the size and weight of their lenses; and this bypasses a bit of the quality aspect.
OK, let me compare DA 35 Ltd to Zeiss ZK 35/2,
or DA 70 Ltd to Zeiss ZK 85/1.4,
based on my experience with these lenses.

The Pentax lenses are small and light
(both positive qualities in themselves,
but also facilitating the AF),
while the [MF] Zeiss lenses are faster.
As a consumer, I appreciate having had the choice.
Although the ZK lenses are no longer available,
which feeds in to the other point you make:

QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
Pentax has really got to do a number of things... get . . . more incentive for more third party releases.
05-06-2013, 08:07 AM   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by kpevav Quote
I'm no accountant or business analyst, but the only immediate effect of a price rise is to increase the value of inventory being held. So maybe this has less to do with the retail market for goods than the accounting practices and perhaps attractiveness of the company for investment or sale.
This is not a Pentax Ricoh Imaging issue. PRI sells its lenses at one price to every Regional (Owned) Company and Distributor. This is a Pentax Ricoh Americas Corp issue. Pentax Ricoh Americas Corp. just sold what little inventory it held to KEH, as we read here. It doesn't hold inventory for Dealer orders. It drop ships to B&H and Adorama and Amazon. That's part of the problem.

How on Earth does marking up the (hypothetical) price of (hypothetical) inventory in the (hypothetically) imkportant but underserved US market assist Ricoh in the (hypothetical) sale of Pentax?

Get real. This is about repairing the devastating damage Ned Bunnell did to the Pentax Brand in the United States by cutting prices and eliminating employees and Dealers - limiting the entire brand to sale only through the largest internet sellers. The very fact that all the people who have demanded more advertising, better service, more physical cameras to hold in local markets before purchase, more camera show presence - more everything!! - the very fact that you all demand this, yet HOWL when PRAC raises the price of lenses to a level where there is enough profit to deliver this shows me that you are all price-only customers. You want everything but you won't pay for anything.

OK then - I understand. Really. I do. Go for it. Shop price. Forget quality, service, IQ, ergonomics.

Have fun.

Last edited by monochrome; 05-06-2013 at 08:33 AM.
05-06-2013, 08:21 AM   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
This is about repairing the devastating damage Ned Bunnell did to the Pentax Brand in the United States by cutting prices and eliminating employees and Dealers - limiting the entire brand to sale only through the largest internet sellers.
In fairness to Ned, he did appreciate and blog
about the problem of disappearing B&M outlets,
several months before April Fool's Day 2012.
05-06-2013, 08:31 AM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
In fairness to Ned, he did appreciate and blog
about the problem of disappearing B&M outlets,
several months before April Fool's Day 2012.
He was supposed to be a decent guy, well-liked as a genuine photographer's executive. Maybe he was boxed by Hoya. None of that changes the fact that the policies in place under his tenure - policies that in fact I do not believe were evident in other world regions (correct me if I am wrong) - hastened Pentax's disappearance from the remaining stores and put Pentax in the position it is in today.
05-06-2013, 09:18 AM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
He was supposed to be a decent guy, well-liked as a genuine photographer's executive. Maybe he was boxed by Hoya. None of that changes the fact that the policies in place under his tenure - policies that in fact I do not believe were evident in other world regions (correct me if I am wrong) - hastened Pentax's disappearance from the remaining stores and put Pentax in the position it is in today.
Let's face it. There is a war going on in retail between the American-centric Amazon.com model of retail sales and everything else.

This is seen in all types of retail goods today, from books to TV's. The Japanese companies viscerally *detest* the inability to restrict distribution sales. It's partly what got their brands in TV sales killed. They go for brand loyalty over price bargaining by consumers, and when the wind shifts to being commodity, consumer-centric, most Japanese electronics companies have flailed around. Canon's been a little smarter than most, but then again, they forged their dominance by better understanding the North American consumer market better than the competition. Toyota and their "no dicker sticker" was an utter failure, now Nissan is trumping them in price and value. Some companies get it, some do not. Perhaps Ricoh with its copier sales model will insert some common sense into the Pentax brand which seems to be dominated by old geezers who listen to their teenage daughters wanting colorful cameras.
05-06-2013, 09:44 AM   #270
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
None of that changes the fact that the policies in place under his tenure - policies that in fact I do not believe were evident in other world regions (correct me if I am wrong) - hastened Pentax's disappearance from the remaining stores and put Pentax in the position it is in today.
My reading of his blog, and the April Fool's Day 2012 changes that followed,
is that he realized the problem, and did attempt to address it,
however much his attempts went against what @Aristophanes
has just called the "American-centric Amazon.com model of retail sales."

The next few years will be very interesting
(in the sense of the Chinese curse),
as we see the clash of that model
with the old-school approach of B&M
and the culture of traditionally-run Japanese firms.
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