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05-18-2013, 08:02 PM - 1 Like   #301
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Who is buying the Q?

An interesting question is who is buying the Q in Japan. Manufacturers have often said that they are targeting "compact upgraders", but I think this is a bit too simple. There are surely some people who have made the conscious decision to get a larger but more capable camera and those people are well served by large-sensor ILC cameras from Pentax and other manufacturers.

On the other hand, there is another group of customers who go into the shop looking for a compact camera or super zoom and are tempted to step up to an MILC. I think only the Pentax Q, (maybe the Nikon J3 and Panasonic GF5, to a lesser extent) is small and cheap enough to appeal to this group. Of course, this only works if the camera is available for customers to handle in the in shops and promoted a bit on TV, like it is in Japan. When you think about it, the twin zoom kit is smaller than a super zoom camera and will be more capable at the 200mm equivalent - it's quite a sensible choice.

Interestingly, most of the people I've seen using Qs are middle-aged or elderly men. These customers are probably less likely to use a phone as a camera and will find the traditional shape of the Q meets their expectation of what a camera should look like, while not being any kind of burden to carry. I don't think these people are likely to share on Flikr, quite aside from the fact that most Japanese don't know about Flikr anyway.

I also think there is a smaller group of more sophisticated enthusiasts who are drawn to the Q, with full understanding for the pros and cons of the small sensor. From what I understand, that is the only real market outside Japan. So, I would not be surprised if Pentax made a Q2 - a higher-end model with a metal body, hi-res screen, more advanced sensor, bigger battery and maybe an EVF, in order to up-sell to that market.

Another interesting fact is that the Q lenses have been selling well. BCN also tracks lens sales. As I write, the 01 Standard Prime is #8, the 03 Fish-eye is #15, and the 06 Telephoto Zoom is #23. In comparison, the DA35mm 2.4 is the highest K-mount entry at #55. At the end of last year, it was even better - three of the Q lenses were in the top 10. So, I'm guessing that the Q is making money for Pentax and I suspect that they will release more Q lenses than are on the roadmap this year.

05-18-2013, 08:10 PM   #302
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
No one says smaller sensors is better. Thy say smaller bodies are better with the largest sensor in class. Like cars with engines.
I've repeatedly said that smaller sensors can be better, or at least be very useful and have real world advantages. I mean pointing my old FinePix F10 at f2.8 at it's widest at something 4m away meant everything from about 2m to infinity was in focus. And doing the same with the Q and it's standard prime at f2.8 would give one a near limit of 2.25 m and a far limit of 18.3 m, for a total of 16m of in-focus goodness.

People who love 'borkeh' may not appreciate this, but it is very useful attribute of smaller sensors for the hundreds of millions of people who love point and shoots and mobile phone cameras.
05-18-2013, 10:19 PM   #303
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I've repeatedly said that smaller sensors can be better, or at least be very useful and have real world advantages. I mean pointing my old FinePix F10 at f2.8 at it's widest at something 4m away meant everything from about 2m to infinity was in focus. And doing the same with the Q and it's standard prime at f2.8 would give one a near limit of 2.25 m and a far limit of 18.3 m, for a total of 16m of in-focus goodness.

People who love 'borkeh' may not appreciate this, but it is very useful attribute of smaller sensors for the hundreds of millions of people who love point and shoots and mobile phone cameras.
It really isn't useful for me. I can get everything in focus with a FF camera.

05-19-2013, 04:22 AM   #304
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
It really isn't useful for me. I can get everything in focus with a FF camera.

Lucky you. I can't even after using them for 30 years....

05-19-2013, 04:28 AM   #305
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
It's 5.8% for 2012 for Japan only.

Pentax confirmed in 2012 that they were disappointed by the Q's sales.

No one says smaller sensors is better. Thy say smaller bodies are better with the largest sensor in class. Like cars with engines.

Yes, Pentax was unhappy with the Q sales but now they are selling the Q10 whose sales volume must have met expectation. 6% share of a highly competitive market is impressive. If that share is not a measure of sucess then surely the whole FF DSLR market, having similar share values, must be considered a failure by the same logic?

Sensor size is not the only measure of value. In fact, most buyers are not very concerned about large as possible sensor sizes. The added cost, weigth and size are not added values for most folks.

The point that is missing is that the Q is compelling not in spite of its small sensor, but because of it.
05-19-2013, 04:31 AM   #306
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
It really isn't useful for me. I can get everything in focus with a FF camera.
And I could do that with a 4x5, but I doubt that either of us could do it effectively under the same circumstances as the Q owner.
05-19-2013, 08:05 AM   #307
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul Ewins Quote
And I could do that with a 4x5, but I doubt that either of us could do it effectively under the same circumstances as the Q owner.
If DOF was really that big of an issue, I would throw on one of my zooms that goes to F/45, and then I would get exactly the same DOF that is possible on the Q (my 8mm F/1.9 only goes to F/8).

Or I would throw on my 8mm lens and crop, or my 15mm lens and crop at F/22.

In reality DOF is never really that critical for my pictures, though, and F/22 with the 'appropriate' lens is good enough.
05-19-2013, 08:27 AM   #308
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
If DOF was really that big of an issue, I would throw on one of my zooms that goes to F/45, and then I would get exactly the same DOF that is possible on the Q (my 8mm F/1.9 only goes to F/8).

Or I would throw on my 8mm lens and crop, or my 15mm lens and crop at F/22.

In reality DOF is never really that critical for my pictures, though, and F/22 with the 'appropriate' lens is good enough.
So you extoll your personal ability, and gear, and preferences - but, in a center-of-the-universe way, dismiss everypne else's personal ability, and gear, and preferences.

People are entitled to decide to purchase a Q or Q10, for whatever their own reasons are, without it being assumed that they've made a bad choice. Otjerwise why shouldn't I just give you $600 or so and let you choose my camera and lenses for me?

05-19-2013, 08:34 AM   #309
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
So you extoll your personal ability, and gear, and preferences
I've never 'extolled' my personal ability. If anything I'm usually self-deprecating about it.

On the internet, I tell people what certain photographical equipment can do, because they might be interested in buying it.

Heck, I usually only tell people what gear I have when it's relevant. I don't have 'my gear' in my sig for a reason.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
- but, in a center-of-the-universe way, dismiss everypne else's personal ability, and gear, and preferences.
I temper my posts with 'my pictures' or 'IMO' a lot. I tell people how *I* would take a picture, which, in my opinion, is the 'most appropriate' way to take a picture.

If it wasn't my opinion that 'my way' was the most appropriate way... I'd take the picture some other way!

Other people see those caveats (in MY opinion/I would.../MY pictures) and decide whether it's relevant to them or not.


QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
People are entitled to decide to purchase a Q or Q10, for whatever their own reasons are, without it being assumed that they've made a bad choice. Otjerwise why shouldn't I just give you $600 or so and let you choose my camera and lenses for me?
If you give me a $600 budget and tell me what your priorities are, I'd give you a suggestion, just like I do for other people on this forum.

As I've said before, I have a Q and there's lots of reasons to have a Q.

...But having larger DOF isn't one of them. That's just mathematically wrong.
05-19-2013, 10:51 AM   #310
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
But having larger DOF isn't one of them. That's just mathematically wrong.
Pls show me how:
Depth of Field Equations
Circles of Confusion for Digital Cameras
05-19-2013, 07:24 PM   #311
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This is kinda different with any country, NIkon J1?
05-20-2013, 10:27 AM   #312
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
On my to-do list, but it might be a few weeks.
05-20-2013, 11:41 AM   #313
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
It's 5.8% for 2012 for Japan only.

Pentax confirmed in 2012 that they were disappointed by the Q's sales.

No one says smaller sensors is better. Thy say smaller bodies are better with the largest sensor in class. Like cars with engines.
That is why I purchased the new Sony NEX-3N that is the newest and smallest NEX APS-C camera and it also has built-in flash unlike the Canon EOS M that has a smaller 1.6x crop sensor.

my Pentax Q w/8.5mm vs NEX-3N w/16-50mm power zoom OSS lens
It is not that much larger than the Q.
05-20-2013, 12:51 PM   #314
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That image is misleading, arranged so that the Q will appear relatively larger.

A proper comparison image, or seeing the products live, side by side, will show how the Q is significantly smaller than the NEX. I'll simply link to camerasize.com:
Compare camera dimensions side by side
Compact Camera Meter
05-20-2013, 01:09 PM   #315
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That image is misleading, arranged so that the Q will appear relatively larger.

A proper comparison image, or seeing the products live, side by side, will show how the Q is significantly smaller than the NEX. I'll simply link to camerasize.com:
Compare camera dimensions side by side
Compact Camera Meter
You compared the Q with a prime to a NEX with a zoom.

Try again:

Compact Camera Meter

For all intents and purposes these cameras bot fit into the same product category based on size. Direct competitors where size is probably only 1 of a dozen criteria. Objectively, the Q's form factor size advantage is not very much, if at all. It's sensor size is the dog.
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