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06-18-2013, 06:58 AM   #391
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
You don't have to tell me, or any other photography enthusiast, what the advantages of a DSLR are. We all know those things. But the crowd that buys a tablet instead of a laptop because it "powers up so quickly", because they "can't imagine anything that a laptop can and a tablet can't" and they can leave it in/on the living room table. They chose that device for convenience. Why would they then - all of a sudden - not chose convenience, ignore the built in camera, and go through all the hassle of shooting with an external camera?
Why do I need a typists keyboard for editing and organizing photos?

Did I use a typewriter in the darkroom?

06-18-2013, 07:03 AM   #392
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
But for consumers and home users a completely different story (and increasingly, education). There the phone and tablet are starting to rule supreme. People don't want a "workstation" desktop at home and laptops can be too expensive unless they are crippled netbooks....
@Aristophanes, thanks for clarifying.

I can see where you are coming from now.

I agree with your basic analysis (what Jobs once called the "Post-PC era"). But I think I cannot see conclusiveness in your deduction of implications for the ILC market. I think it is your opinion rather than a hard fact. So, there are several possible scenarios where you picked one from.

Just another possible scenario (I prefer to stay open minded and refuse to pick it either):

The tablet market may mature, Apps may bring the darkroom to the tablet (has partly happened already), Apple & alike may upgrade time capsules to serve as caches for backups to the cloud etc.

And users may continue forever to own a notebook and/or tablet or another cloud-enabling device before they own any ILC.

Scientifically, it is called Ubiquitous computing.

Therefore, I see the possibility that postprocessing capabilities on an ILC are of secondary concern, and will remain so.

It may become more important that ILCs connect more seamlessly to the personal cloud of devices which will soon be surrounding us.
06-18-2013, 07:05 AM   #393
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Why do I need a typists keyboard for editing and organizing photos?

Did I use a typewriter in the darkroom?

Yes of course, you're right.

» Clavius slowly steps away. Turns around, and then runs. «
06-18-2013, 07:38 AM   #394
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Maybe Adobe is putting their toes into the subscription model concept because they see the heavy computing part of digital darkrooms moving from the user's equipment to the server. This partially circumvents the need for an ever-expanding capability of tablets, etc.

06-18-2013, 07:55 AM   #395
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Uhmmm - you are starting to go in a circle here. I thought you were just saying people don't use high powered workstations any more.

I shoot RAW+ and my Q's and K-01 are set up with Eye-Fi cards. JPEG's transfer wirelessly. RAW files move by the analog method.

Did you read my post or are you just arguing to be argumentative? I described Eye-Fi as Pentax Step One - the quick and dirty solution, and that they worked extensively with Eye-Fi engineers to make the set-up of links easier than with any other brand. I described Pentax Step Two - the elegant and permanent solution, and that they are working with Apple but have been rebuffed so far, even though Adobe is also working with Apple.

Do ya think Pentax might be working on tethering? How about instant external image display? Do ya think this might be an area in which Pentax could be different??? After all, a dSLR is a dSLR. They all do the same thing with only minor cosmetic or technical distinctions to separate one brand form another.

Do ya think Pentax might be setting itself up to be the brand of choice for the Millenials, Gen Y and Gen X users you are so sure Japan is ignoring? Afer all, Pentax has stated they can be the #3 maker in the intermediate term and #1 in 20 years. Why don't we just beleive them for once and give them credit for at least having a credible plan?
I don't think Pentax's explanation about being rebuffed makes a great deal of sense, if that is really what has happened. In the first place, it's not very surprising Apple isn't all that keen on RAW on tablets. Apart from the heavy power requirement for decoding and editing, what's in it for Apple? I mean, in addition to Pentax, Apple likely has world + wife knocking on the door wanting special treatment. And in so many cases, it will be outfits wanting special treatment for proprietary file formats Apple doesn't own or see a cent from. From Apple's POV, perhaps much easier to dump the problem on Adobe who can charge end users appropriately. Isn't dng an Adoble thing?? Apple has much, much bigger fish in view that a few desperate Japanese photographic guys who've just discovered it's century 21. I think Apple may be saying "Sorry guys but IOS = jpegs only", or maybe they are cooking up their own file format which they think they can sell back to said desperadoes who'll be terrified of being left out in the cold.

It's a good example of how swiftly camera-makers are being turned into supplicant hardware vendors because it's the software which increasingly calls the shots.

Anyway, I think the tablet thing on here is a little exaggerated. At present, tablets are fine for some things but not fine for others. If you want a content creation device, so to speak, you need a laptop and there are still huge numbers of those around. Eventually tablets and laptops will perhaps merge - tablet form factor, detached bluetooth keyboard, guts of an ultrabook - but we aren't there yet beyond a few experiments.

Alternatively, Ricoh could launch a cloud RAW service, You upload your RAW file to the cloud and edit it there on their servers via your browser. The vast majority of all photo users won't need such a service, I guess, because they'll be happy with jpegs straight out of the camera anyway. I guess the cost would be scary but losing all your sales to, say, Canon if they introduced such a service would be scary too.

Last edited by mecrox; 06-18-2013 at 08:01 AM.
06-18-2013, 08:35 AM   #396
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Rebuffed because of RAW alone makes no sense. Everyone knows tablets can't really do RAW and choke on large file processing.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Scientifically, it is called Ubiquitous computing.
I agree with this, but my sense from the PC market is they see little growth ahead, and much of that is on the biz side, not the home side.

If I have to buy a heavy iron PC to use my DSLR it's the DSLR that has a problem because it's the reliant one. The PC doesn't need the camera like the camera needs the PC.

The K-500/50 and Q-7 all still rely on the PC. Eye-Fi card is not going to cut it. Opportunity missed for Pentax. Who is going to pay $60 more for WiFi when the smartphone/tablet does it for free? Wi-fi is a $7 chip for pity's sake and $10 worth of sunk once software development.

I dislike the post-PC era quip because it's not true. Desktop PC's are no longer going to be the main driver of the CPU market, but they're not going away.

Cameras need to be as ubiquitous as the CPU market. They are, after all, just another CPU with an optic attached.

QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Maybe Adobe is putting their toes into the subscription model concept because they see the heavy computing part of digital darkrooms moving from the user's equipment to the server. This partially circumvents the need for an ever-expanding capability of tablets, etc.
Adobe moved to subscription because Photoshop is now enterprise/agency software and they will keep their revenues with those users. Anyone below that is a problem because of the $0.99 app, piracy, and the competition.

Adobe is willing to ditch many customers to keep the few high-paying ones. They really have no choice. Photoshop was always a print-oriented software package for the publishing industry. Web homogeneity erased a lot of PS's raison d'etre. PS is overkill for many users and Adobe is deliberately fracturing their market to make sure they stay revenue healthy. Smart but risky move. I wonder if Adobe will actually be less attentive to customers once they've locked them in. I think that's the inevitable firestorm.

PS. I recently had a meeting with a civil engineer about a major construction project. He no longer takes a laptop to sites. It's an iPad. It takes photos, dictation, and spot notes. He still outputs reports in MS Office, but not for long he thinks. The desktop/laptops of his engineering firm will only handle CAD duties in the future. Client time sheets and accounting has already moved offsite through cloud services. We did talk photos briefly because, frankly, his shots were kind of lousy at details, and he did wish for a better camera. I got to thinking if his iPad was in his briefcase while his camera was free to shoot with better detail, wirelessly connected to the iPad, he'd have bought a camera. So all I see is one less camera sale because the camera tech is behind the times. The Japanese manufacturers are stuck in their own little world these days.
06-18-2013, 09:02 AM   #397
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote

Adobe moved to subscription because Photoshop is now enterprise/agency software and they will keep their revenues with those users. Anyone below that is a problem because of the $0.99 app, piracy, and the competition.
I wasn't thinking so much of what Adobe has already said about Photoshop but what they could do with Lightroom some day. You don't need a robust Lightroom designed for iOS or Android if you can move the heavy lifting to an Adobe server -- hence the subscription model.
06-18-2013, 11:07 AM   #398
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My experience at a Verizon store...

I travel like once a week, and always take a lightweight laptop with me, because its car travel. I suppose if i traveled by airplane, i'd be more inclined to use a tablet.

Finally decided i needed an internet connection for my laptop, and visited a Verizon store because they have the best phone connectivity in my area. Seemed like a large verizon store to me, maybe 8 staff or more. Lots of people waiting. Lots of display space for devices. Didn't see one laptop Saw only one camera and it was a Samsung Nx something or other. Wouldn't turn on. So after a long wait, they fixed me up with a Verizon "jetpack". Acts like a portable wifi hotspot, about 2x4 inches long. Guy said it would work anywhere i could get a connection with my verizon cell phone. Clearly, phones and tablets were what this store was all about though. Amazing how quickly the culture is changing.

Nice to hear that Pentax is getting a start with connectivity, although its not something that i would probably use. Tethering and remote operability is more interesting however.
.

06-18-2013, 11:21 AM   #399
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I find tablets to be good for some things, and an annoyance for others. They're great for games and watching streaming content, but typing on one? I want a keyboard to write an email or do anything serious. Perfect voice recognition, a generation or two better than the best we have now, might make things a little better; but until they have some revolutionary input device, that nobody has thought up yet, I will require a laptop, at the very least, or a desktop. I do realize the market is shifting, maybe I'm an old man, but give me my PC.
06-18-2013, 11:42 AM   #400
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Oh My Freezing Grandmother, Aristophanes, you are repeating what I wrote but recasting it as if Pentax is following rather than leading, and as if you thought of it.

Pardon my shouting - BUT
  1. THEY ARE DEVELOPING IN-CAMERA WIFI!!
  2. THEY INTENTIONALLY DID EYE-FI AS A STOPGAP, BUT THEY BUILT IN-CAMERA CARD RECOGNITION!!!
  3. APPLE DID REFUSE THEM A LINK FOR RAW FOR THE VERY REASON I STATED, WHICH YOU RE-STATED AS IF YOU INVENTED THE OBSERVATION
  4. PENTAX ARE DECOUPLING FROM THE DSLR
    1. It is called a MX-1, GR, Q
  5. FOR USERS WHO NEED A DSLR THERE IS A NEED FOR DESKTOP HORSEPOWER
YES, i ALREADY KNOW. PENTAX CAN DO NO RIGHT AND YOU CAN THINK NO WRONG.
06-18-2013, 12:02 PM   #401
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Oh My Freezing Grandmother, Aristophanes, you are repeating what I wrote but recasting it as if Pentax is following rather than leading, and as if you thought of it.

Pardon my shouting - BUT
  1. THEY ARE DEVELOPING IN-CAMERA WIFI!!
  2. THEY INTENTIONALLY DID EYE-FI AS A STOPGAP, BUT THEY BUILT IN-CAMERA CARD RECOGNITION!!!
  3. APPLE DID REFUSE THEM A LINK FOR RAW FOR THE VERY REASON I STATED, WHICH YOU RE-STATED AS IF YOU INVENTED THE OBSERVATION
  4. PENTAX ARE DECOUPLING FROM THE DSLR
    1. It is called a MX-1, GR, Q
  5. FOR USERS WHO NEED A DSLR THERE IS A NEED FOR DESKTOP HORSEPOWER
YES, i ALREADY KNOW. PENTAX CAN DO NO RIGHT AND YOU CAN THINK NO WRONG.
They are late developing in-camera Wi-Fi and a s a result P&S are dying. Apparently GPS is all the fad if you look at the Pentax WG line/ Oooohh! Tablets and smartphone have been on a sales tear for 3 years now, so we're 3 models into a revolution and the Japanese still do not "get it".

I do not see Eye-Fi as a stopgap. I think they seriously believe—as does Nikon with their after-market add-on—that this is an extra feature. It's not an extra. It's integral to photography now, like a lab was with film. So they offload it to Eye-Fi a a kludge, and a poor one at that. they need a direct Wi-Fi in-camera to the mobile OS's.

So what if Apple didn't want RAW processing chewing through batteries? Make it JPEG only for now until storage and CPU cycles catch up. The RAW excuse is still an excuse.

What is "de-coupling"? The GR has no built-in connectivity.

For users who BUY a DSLR they MAY NOT HAVE A PC ANYMORE AND IT IS NOT IN THEIR FUTURE PURCHASES!!!!!

There is no NEED for a PC anymore for the bulk of consumer photography, including a lot of prosumer DSLR use. You are imagining it. I had a Nikon D40 at 6MP's and did not NEED a PC if I shot JPEG like most DSLR shooters. I could have gone through a tablet with that file size easily because it is a DSLR with a smartphone JPEG output. RAW is a high-end editing baseline. It's use for the majority of the DSLR market is suspect. Ergo, one needs to sell DSLR's without requiring a RAW processor via the home desktop.

Apple put out an iPad camera dongle (not wireless) ages ago. Where are the Pentax and Nikon apps to take advantage of that feature? Nowhere. They do not see mobile OS's as an editing and sharing platform. Did any of them have a presence at WWDC? No. Their lunch is being eaten by the combo of cameraphone and mobile OS's and not a camera manufacturer in sight.

Actually, I am blaming the whole Japanese camera market because smarpthones have largely been a boat missed by Japan Inc. and they are getting crushed by that fact. They are in a naive, discrete little world. Have you seen the financials from these companies? Most are bleeding red ink. Olympus and Sony Imaging are a mess on the balance sheet, Canon is engaged in a wholesale reduction of its B&M presence (what do they know that PRIC does not). Nikon is being very cautious because they are 100% tied to DSLR's.
06-18-2013, 12:17 PM   #402
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
They are late developing in-camera Wi-Fi and a s a result P&S are dying. Apparently GPS is all the fad if you look at the Pentax WG line/ Oooohh! Tablets and smartphone have been on a sales tear for 3 years now, so we're 3 models into a revolution and the Japanese still do not "get it".

[snip]

Actually, I am blaming the whole Japanese camera market because smarpthones have largely been a boat missed by Japan Inc. and they are getting crushed by that fact. They are in a naive, discrete little world. Have you seen the financials from these companies? Most are bleeding red ink. Olympus and Sony Imaging are a mess on the balance sheet, Canon is engaged in a wholesale reduction of its B&M presence (what do they know that PRIC does not). Nikon is being very cautious because they are 100% tied to DSLR's.
Q: We're seeing camera apps and Wi-Fi becoming more common in cameras now. Nikon and Samsung are making Android-powered cameras. Will any camera that's not 'connected' be obsolete?

A: At this stage I don't believe that's the case at all. A lot of people are using our E-mount and A-mount products to produce pictures that hang on the wall or are displayed in galleries. We're not at the stage where consumers are going to invest in this level of technology and use it solely for uploading to social media.

From an interview with Sony Electronics President and COO Phil Molyneux last fall.

Make of that what you will. Perhaps he is right. For myself, if this is the view the camera-makers have of the IT/connected side, I am tempted to put my head in my hands. I mean, he can't see that once you have uploaded your picture to your tablet or laptop, it is uploaded, period. And until you do that, no one can see it at all. That it is then uploaded to the cloud or a website, or is simply printed out, is beside the point. Uploaded is uploaded. Ergo, wifi and apps to make that easy and agreeable on the most common consumer devices - tablets and laptops, e.g. - might be a good idea. It's not about social media (yuk), it's about connectivity.

Last edited by mecrox; 06-18-2013 at 12:32 PM.
06-18-2013, 12:24 PM   #403
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I see a disconnect between FF and smart phones/tablets...

For awhile now, i've been accepting that i'll eventually buy an FF camera and upgrade to more expensive, usually larger tele lenses. But as of today, i'm realizing there is no real need for me to have an FF camera:

a. Art sales really seem to be down in my geographical area. Larger prints, in the area of 20x30 or 24x36 have always been harder for me to sell, while smaller prints still seem to sell. Without any real need to print larger, why should i buy a FF camera that excels in larger print sizes?

b. My first backpacking trip of this year has taught me that i really don't want to carry heavy cameras/lenses to reach some of these pristine landscape areas.

c. The prior discussions on the cultural move away from PCs to smart phones and tablets, strike me as contradictory to the long term photographic movement to larger more specialized FF cameras. For event shooting at the local playhouse for promos/dress rehearsals, i always select my K5. But now for street shooting or hiking, i always reach for my smaller Sony mirrorless.

d. I realize that the FF cameras are selling well, at the moment. But i question their viability long term. Like PCs, i doubt that they will ever go away. But once their market is saturated, will the sales continue to rise with population growth. They may be more like dinosaurs where the customer base is not sufficiently large to fund the continued FF development cost.

e. The other day, i looked up the weight of the DA 50-135 lens f2.8 (765gms, 1 1/2 lbs) compared to the Nikon 70-200 VRII lens f2.8 (1540gms, 3.4 lbs). The body weights are not that different: 765gms for the K5II and 850 gms for the D600. I'm sure FF cameras are a delight to shoot with and process, but I don't really want to lug one around. If Pentax develops one or not, makes no difference to me at this point. The K5ii i'll probably end up with though.

It all comes down to what we individually want to do with our photographic equipment.
06-18-2013, 12:25 PM   #404
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If a complete "instagramation" of photography is the future, I'd rather be left behind.
06-18-2013, 12:34 PM   #405
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
I find tablets to be good for some things, and an annoyance for others. They're great for games and watching streaming content, but typing on one? I want a keyboard to write an email or do anything serious. Perfect voice recognition, a generation or two better than the best we have now, might make things a little better; but until they have some revolutionary input device, that nobody has thought up yet, I will require a laptop, at the very least, or a desktop. I do realize the market is shifting, maybe I'm an old man, but give me my PC.
Kenafein, I don't have a tablet, but i see these folding keyboards for sale. They seem to be able to hook up the portable keyboards to a tablet, that then is equivalent to a laptop. I guess :-)
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