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06-21-2013, 05:02 AM   #481
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Samsung just launched their new Android-based MILC. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole; it's useless for photographic purposes.
Pentax should keep making photographic tools, not silly gadgets with Facebook and Angry Birds.
If you mean the Samsung Galaxy NX, I don't think it sounds too bad for a first attempt even if it is far from perfect. Call it a warning. In time, Samsung or someone else will start to get things right. Mostly open firmware, a full API, you can edit your pictures using Snapseed or Camera+ which you'll already know from your mobile if you don't like the camera-maker's app, etc, etc - there's nothing silly about any of this. There are silly ways of implementing it, sure, and there are plenty of challenges to overcome such as battery life. But I think it is bound to happen and for the Japanese camera-makers, having Samsung and Apple around like this must be about as much fun as noticing Tony Soprano staring at you across a crowded room.

Besides, at the moment, if I connect my K5 to my PC I'm simply presented with another storage device. All the software and sophisticated electronics in my camera are completely wasted. I might as well be plugging in a 10-buck USB stick as a 1000-buck camera. Put a modern OS on the camera and its capabilities are now open and available to the PC or tablet. It strikes me as crazy not to do this, such a waste.

06-21-2013, 05:32 AM   #482
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I'm not sure we need a mobile OS on the camera. Just some elements of it, or hooks.

The blunt market reality is that mobile OS's are displacing desktop and laptop OS's. Camera makers that take for granted the user will have a desk or laptop PC are going to be in trouble.

And since most cameras are designed to be portable, pairing them up with mobile OS's makes sense. You may not get RAW, but most don't need it. The person who needs RAW likely also as a PC so there's no lost sale. If they camera doesn't play nice with a mobile OS, then there is a potential for a lost sale.

Tony Soprano. Crowded room. Funny. RIP James. Your metaphors live on.
06-21-2013, 06:31 AM   #483
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
If you mean the Samsung Galaxy NX, I don't think it sounds too bad for a first attempt even if it is far from perfect. Call it a warning. In time, Samsung or someone else will start to get things right. Mostly open firmware, a full API, you can edit your pictures using Snapseed or Camera+ which you'll already know from your mobile if you don't like the camera-maker's app, etc, etc - there's nothing silly about any of this. There are silly ways of implementing it, sure, and there are plenty of challenges to overcome such as battery life. But I think it is bound to happen and for the Japanese camera-makers, having Samsung and Apple around like this must be about as much fun as noticing Tony Soprano staring at you across a crowded room.

Besides, at the moment, if I connect my K5 to my PC I'm simply presented with another storage device. All the software and sophisticated electronics in my camera are completely wasted. I might as well be plugging in a 10-buck USB stick as a 1000-buck camera. Put a modern OS on the camera and its capabilities are now open and available to the PC or tablet. It strikes me as crazy not to do this, such a waste.
"Far from perfect" is the operative term. There's a fundamental disconnect between the concept of keeping the subject in your view and using a touchscreen which obviously takes the subject out of your view. And no image stabilization on a MILC in 2013?
06-21-2013, 06:41 AM   #484
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
And no image stabilization on a MILC in 2013?
And even on a MILC the size of Texas?

(It's taller and wider than a K-50)

06-21-2013, 06:48 AM   #485
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
"Far from perfect" is the operative term. There's a fundamental disconnect between the concept of keeping the subject in your view and using a touchscreen which obviously takes the subject out of your view. And no image stabilization on a MILC in 2013?
Indeed, the concept itself - that you should operate a camera like a web browsing, Facebook updating, e-mail reading, message typing, music listening device works against the photographer.
The real advantage is for Samsung, they can now share components with their smartphone range.

I don't want to wait for Samsung to "get things right". Pentax and the others did that, decades ago.

gazonk, it's taller and wider than a K-5 series body:
http://camerasize.com/compare/#465,373
06-21-2013, 08:37 AM   #486
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Samsung NX has OIS on the lenses (some of them).
06-21-2013, 08:54 AM   #487
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I'm not sure we need a mobile OS on the camera. Just some elements of it, or hooks.

The blunt market reality is that mobile OS's are displacing desktop and laptop OS's. Camera makers that take for granted the user will have a desk or laptop PC are going to be in trouble.

And since most cameras are designed to be portable, pairing them up with mobile OS's makes sense. You may not get RAW, but most don't need it. The person who needs RAW likely also as a PC so there's no lost sale. If they camera doesn't play nice with a mobile OS, then there is a potential for a lost sale.

Tony Soprano. Crowded room. Funny. RIP James. Your metaphors live on.
Yes, he was a great actor and will be sadly missed. RIP James.

I think you make a very good point. And camera-makers who realize that users are expecting more software tricks from the camera than showing up on their tablet as a storage device will do very well. A stripped down subset of Android, perhaps? Anyway, we'll soon find out. Maybe Samsung are somewhat showing off with the NX, a proof of concept thang.

FWIW, I was in the centre of town at lunchtime today. Huge numbers of tourists about including a lot of folks from the Far East. I saw quite a few MILCS - Pens, NEXes and Nikon 1s. Every single one was being used just like taking a picture with a mobile phone. Hold out in front and point, maybe adjust the focal length of a zoom, click. Go to a coffee shop afterwards, some tappety-tap on the rear screen to edit if you wish, tappety-tap the jpeg over the coffee shop's wifi to wherever you want. It can be hard to figure why some folks can be so resistant to this stuff just because it involves a camera.
06-21-2013, 08:58 AM   #488
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Indeed, the concept itself - that you should operate a camera like a web browsing, Facebook updating, e-mail reading, message typing, music listening device works against the photographer.
The real advantage is for Samsung, they can now share components with their smartphone range.

I don't want to wait for Samsung to "get things right". Pentax and the others did that, decades ago.

gazonk, it's taller and wider than a K-5 series body:
Compare camera dimensions side by side
If they'd done it right, they could have created a more customizable interface than has ever been seen before. Think 3(or more) dials, quick focus point selection, quick access to all the pertinent camera functions, however, none of these settings can be changed while looking through the viewfinder, because they provided 0 dedicated buttons and dials. They should try to find a happy medium.

06-21-2013, 10:24 AM   #489
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Most DSLR shooters do not use RAW
I doubt that's true. The few polls that I've run across over the years put the raw-jpg split at about 50/50. I know about 40 DSLR users; most of them shoot raw.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Samsung or someone else will start to get things right. Mostly open firmware, a full API, you can edit your pictures using Snapseed or Camera+ which you'll already know from your mobile if you don't like the camera-maker's app, etc, etc - there's nothing silly about any of this.
There may not be anything silly about this, but when the only way to move things forward for camera companies is to add features which only minimally impact the photographic capabilities of the camera, you know that those very same camera companies have run out of ideas and are seeking desperate measures. By all means add wifi and improve connectivity. But don't expect any of that to be any sort of game changer. Entry and mid-level ILCs are money-losers right now; and that situation is not likely to improve any time soon. Olympus and Sony have flooded the market with deeply discounted MILCs. Nikon seems intent on doing the same thing with their entry and lower mid-level DSLRs. Demand for such cameras is declining. Most people who want an ILC already have one. They're not likely to buy another one just because it has wifi and API hooks.
06-21-2013, 10:39 AM   #490
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
without a third party like Eye-Fi at considerable higher cost and bothersome set-up, questionable subscription (cloud) tie-ins
An Eye-Fi Mobi card links DIRECTLY to the portable device with no additional account or network connection necessary. Set up is described below and takes literally two minutes and is impossible to do wrong. Cost? - yeah, they're expensive - about $35 for the Wi-Fi part of the card.
  • Cost = maybe. A Eye-Fi Mobi (jpeg only) 8Gb Class 10 card cost $50
  • Bothersome set-up? Not really. Nearly automatic.
    • Download app from AppStore
    • Insert Mobi Card in camera
    • Turn on Camera
    • Open App
    • Keystroke Enter 6 character Activation Code in App (printed on reverse of plastic clamshell card case)
    • Linky Linky Done and Done
The link is direct to the phone or tablet. 90 feet outdoors, 45 feet indoors.
The transfer is almost instantaneous
No cloud account required*


* This is of course contrary to the more powerful and complex Pro X2 card which also transfers RAW and allows user to select which images to transfer while in camera, among other things. It is POsSIBLE to set the card up without a cloud subscription but a real PITA to do. It is also a [painfully slow transfer.

Pentax made integrating the Pro X2 card with the new cameras easier and more fl;exible, with in-camera controls.

IMHO users who transfer jpeg's can also transfer thier RAW files the old, analog way (remove card from camera, insert card in computer), so why even use a Pro X2? Just use a Mobi card, even if you shoot RAW+

Last edited by monochrome; 06-21-2013 at 10:55 AM.
06-21-2013, 10:59 AM   #491
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
There may not be anything silly about this, but when the only way to move things forward for camera companies is to add features which only minimally impact the photographic capabilities of the camera, you know that those very same camera companies have run out of ideas and are seeking desperate measures. By all means add wifi and improve connectivity. But don't expect any of that to be any sort of game changer. Entry and mid-level ILCs are money-losers right now; and that situation is not likely to improve any time soon. Olympus and Sony have flooded the market with deeply discounted MILCs. Nikon seems intent on doing the same thing with their entry and lower mid-level DSLRs. Demand for such cameras is declining. Most people who want an ILC already have one. They're not likely to buy another one just because it has wifi and API hooks.
The point of a camera is to record an image. Making that recorded image easier to view (and/or manipulate) is core to a camera's abilities and anything which facilitates this is hardly "desperate measures". In the context we're considering, I'd think it an advance. It's giving more power to the user, for a start. My guess is that this isn't something which is just going to be used as a lure to sell more overpriced MILCs (I'm sure you are right about them). It's a core change to the whole camera business. Software and what it can do is starting to move centre stage and this will impact every company and every camera from high to low.
06-21-2013, 11:05 AM   #492
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
I doubt that's true. The few polls that I've run across over the years put the raw-jpg split at about 50/50. I know about 40 DSLR users; most of them shoot raw.
I work right near a cruise ship terminal no a tourist waterfront. I see 50-100 DSLR's a day easily. Most of these people are average to well-heeled tourist largely an older set, and I seriously doubt they shoot RAW and process no their laptop in the cabin. These people likely used SLR's in their younger days.

Saying most DSLR users shoot RAW is like saying most SLR buyers had a darkroom. The vocal web minority on the web or in camera/prosumer clubs are NOT the market by any stretch. They are a fraction of the user base all-in.

I had this same conversation with the manager of a local camera store I frequent and in their free classes the overwhelming # of people never go to RAW. They are all about just taking better photos with the camera. Many people already spend enough time in front of screens and the last thing they often want is more screen-time in a hobby.
06-21-2013, 11:08 AM   #493
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
The point of a camera is to record an image. Making that recorded image easier to view (and/or manipulate) is core to a camera's abilities and anything which facilitates this is hardly "desperate measures". In the context we're considering, I'd think it an advance. It's giving more power to the user, for a start. My guess is that this isn't something which is just going to be used as a lure to sell more overpriced MILCs (I'm sure you are right about them). It's a core change to the whole camera business. Software and what it can do is starting to move centre stage and this will impact every company and every camera from high to low.
+1

Bokeh will be an algorithm indistinguishable from an optical aesthetic.
06-21-2013, 12:09 PM   #494
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
Samsung NX has OIS on the lenses (some of them).
That's true but I think only one Samsung prime lens (60 mm) has OIS. It's mostly on the mid to long zooms from what I can tell.
06-21-2013, 05:21 PM   #495
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
That's true but I think only one Samsung prime lens (60 mm) has OIS. It's mostly on the mid to long zooms from what I can tell.
Sure, but the same goes for Sony NEX, for instance.
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