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06-24-2013, 02:06 PM   #511
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I'm under the impression mobile OSs (iOS, Android) are powering supplemental devices for most people. I personally don't know anyone who has totally given up on a desktop/notebook or who has stated they intend to.

06-24-2013, 02:06 PM   #512
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I am not convinced that mobile OS's are capable of handling RAW, especially as mobile OS's are usually not hardwired, so even transmission is an issue.
It's funny how you on the one side think the PC to tablet transition is going to happen even faster than Samsung's and Apple's executives are hoping in their wettest dreams, while at the same time you're extremely conservative with respect to the future processing capabilities of tablets.

QuoteQuote:
The majority of DSLR purchasers the goal is to take a photo, not process one.
No DSLR newbie with a modern Mac laptop with iPhoto preloaded who sets his camera to the "RAW" setting (because he's heard it's what the cool guys do) is ever going to even know that he's "processing" his images. He's simply not going to notice there's a difference at all. And no later than in 2 or 3 years, the same will be possible on tablets.
06-24-2013, 04:19 PM   #513
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
I'm under the impression mobile OSs (iOS, Android) are powering supplemental devices for most people. I personally don't know anyone who has totally given up on a desktop/notebook or who has stated they intend to.
I agree, I will not give up my PC for video editing, games etc. I prefer to watch my youtube videos on my MacBook Air than my iPad since youtube blocks some videos on mobile devices. I have the Verizon HTC Droid DNA smartphone and I can't imagine using it at home to post on forums like this even with it's 5" 1080p display.
06-24-2013, 05:49 PM   #514
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
It's funny how you on the one side think the PC to tablet transition is going to happen even faster than Samsung's and Apple's executives are hoping in their wettest dreams, while at the same time you're extremely conservative with respect to the future processing capabilities of tablets.
Because iOS and Android were designed from the groun-up to be low-power, low-bandwidth devices.

RAW is not any of that.

In fact the mobile OS"s all have restricted high file size apps from even getting on their stores. There are power (battery) and CPU limits, not to mention storage.

Apple doesn't even recommend their MacBook Air run Aperture!

Apple can at least point people at their laptop/desktop line for more options, but Google cannot.

QuoteQuote:
No DSLR newbie with a modern Mac laptop with iPhoto preloaded who sets his camera to the "RAW" setting (because he's heard it's what the cool guys do) is ever going to even know that he's "processing" his images. He's simply not going to notice there's a difference at all. And no later than in 2 or 3 years, the same will be possible on tablets.
Then if there's no hands-on PP, then so what? JPEG in camera works from RAW exactly the same way. There's just an algorithm set a the factory substituting, and this is where most PP is going anyway (and why Adobe is getting out of the photoshop-for-everyoe model..the $).99 app is killing it).

If you are a manufacturer of DSLR's and relay on your customers to own a laptop/desktop...don't. It's product death soon. Most new consumers in developing world market do not have, and likely never will have, a non-monile OS. The whole 'big power' PC structure is now a second tier.

06-24-2013, 05:54 PM   #515
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
I agree, I will not give up my PC for video editing, games etc. I prefer to watch my youtube videos on my MacBook Air than my iPad since youtube blocks some videos on mobile devices. I have the Verizon HTC Droid DNA smartphone and I can't imagine using it at home to post on forums like this even with it's 5" 1080p display.
You're not the main market. Mobile OS devices are actually selling almost 5x the traditional OS volumes (per machine unit) and PC sales are actually falling. In fact, without government, biz, and institutional purchases, they'd be in decline.

The household OS is looking to be the AppleTV or equivalent, dedicated gaming box, many mobile OS devices, and no PC's. That's what the sales data predicts as fewer and fewer homes upgrade their home PC.

And remember: North America is king of the home PC. Europe is a distant second, and most of the growth areas of the world have completely bypassed them, just like they bypassed telephone landlines.

As a camera manufacturer, you cannot rely on your consumer having on anymore. If you are a DSLR company like Pentax, this poses an issue.
06-24-2013, 07:12 PM   #516
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I'm not sure we need a mobile OS on the camera. Just some elements of it, or hooks.

The blunt market reality is that mobile OS's are displacing desktop and laptop OS's. Camera makers that take for granted the user will have a desk or laptop PC are going to be in trouble.

And since most cameras are designed to be portable, pairing them up with mobile OS's makes sense. You may not get RAW, but most don't need it. The person who needs RAW likely also as a PC so there's no lost sale. If they camera doesn't play nice with a mobile OS, then there is a potential for a lost sale.
And here we have it...

Fujifilm X-M1 Hands-on Preview: Digital Photography Review

I'm not upgrading my Pentax body until I see a WiFi and Mobile Os control feature.
06-24-2013, 08:10 PM   #517
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And here we have it...

Fujifilm X-M1 Hands-on Preview: Digital Photography Review

I'm not upgrading my Pentax body until I see a WiFi and Mobile Os control feature.

I was surprised to see no WiFi feature — apart from EyeFi card support — for the new Ricoh GR.

Considering that this new GR is announced in the same timeframe as the Oly Pen 5 and this new Fuji's camera, that a GR is perceived as Ricoh flagship camera too (or best of GRs, same as Pen 5 is best of Pens), and that it intends to be on the market for the next 2 years, the Pentax Ricoh are really lagging behind (connectivity feature perception wise).

I didn't expect WiFi in Pentax K500, but in Ricoh GR, yes. I mean, even an entry level Fuji has it now. But brand new Q7 and brand new GR don't. Or lets rephrase it: maybe PRIC is not entirely lagging behind and are stuck in prehistoric ideas, but that they are slow to capture imagination with all new directional commitments (instead of compensating with low price), yes they are.

I believe that what most Pentax users here would love to see, is:
• that Pentax has listened to its users' requests
• something entirely new Pentax has not done before,
• something that is not a colourful repacking of same old tech.

And because of that, some of us are anxious.

So let's see: Brand new K50 has same old flash sync speed, previous gen. SAFOX (not even current from the K5II), no decrippled K-mount — all features asked by thousands of users to be radically improved upon.

And similar as Aristophanes, I'm not buying a thing from Pentax before there is some clear future direction unveiled. This has nothing to do with the WiFi feature itself, but with much broader sense of imaging philosophy, mount direction (lenses, TCs, flashes, FF question, accessories, new AF, etc.) and alignment with user requests materialised.

So far, everything that really matters for understanding of that wider picture is veiled in thick fog and not yet materialised.

Last edited by Uluru; 06-24-2013 at 08:58 PM.
06-24-2013, 08:45 PM   #518
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Because iOS and Android were designed from the groun-up to be low-power, low-bandwidth devices.

RAW is not any of that.

In fact the mobile OS"s all have restricted high file size apps from even getting on their stores. There are power (battery) and CPU limits, not to mention storage.

Apple doesn't even recommend their MacBook Air run Aperture!

Apple can at least point people at their laptop/desktop line for more options, but Google cannot.



Then if there's no hands-on PP, then so what? JPEG in camera works from RAW exactly the same way. There's just an algorithm set a the factory substituting, and this is where most PP is going anyway (and why Adobe is getting out of the photoshop-for-everyoe model..the $).99 app is killing it).

If you are a manufacturer of DSLR's and relay on your customers to own a laptop/desktop...don't. It's product death soon. Most new consumers in developing world market do not have, and likely never will have, a non-monile OS. The whole 'big power' PC structure is now a second tier.
Newbies might not fully grasp they are "processing" a RAW image in iPhoto but that doesn't mean they aren't aware of the image editing capabilities available to them in the software. Apple made it just minimalist enough that anyone can use it without confusion or frustration.

06-25-2013, 12:10 AM   #519
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About "decrippled mount" - since Pentax stopped making K/M lenses ages ago, it's highly unlikely they'll reintroduce full compatibility with those lenses in an entry level camera.
06-25-2013, 12:25 AM   #520
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
About "decrippled mount" - since Pentax stopped making K/M lenses ages ago, it's highly unlikely they'll reintroduce full compatibility with those lenses in an entry level camera.
That is just one item from the long list of suggestions, posted here on PF (and elsewhere) long ago.
I mentioned it along with other requests — and none of them materialised in any K-mount body released since Pentax Ricoh acquisition.

The real question is: how many more bodies we may seriously expect to come since these recent introductions, and what suggestions (users were asking about for years) will be addressed in those bodies if none was addressed so far?
06-25-2013, 03:10 AM   #521
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And I was talking about that "just one item"
What are your other requests?
06-25-2013, 04:57 AM   #522
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Newbies might not fully grasp they are "processing" a RAW image in iPhoto but that doesn't mean they aren't aware of the image editing capabilities available to them in the software. Apple made it just minimalist enough that anyone can use it without confusion or frustration.
Aren't aware or don't care.

50% of the workforce and especially those with discretionary $$'s already spend their "work" time in front of a screen.

We say PP "workflow" like it's a good thing!

That is the LAST thing most people want to do with their images. As with film and lab processing, they just want it done at the taking stage.

People here overestimate the amount of PP done by consumers. I bet in the DSLR market less than 10% actually do much PP. DSLR-iPhoto-Facebook with no editing in between is the more likely path. You do NOT need RAW for that so long as the in-camera JPEG output is very good.

JPEG is archival, while no proprietary RAW is. DNG may become an archival intermediary in the near future. With advent of larger storage SD cards, shooting RAW+ is better for most consumers. Use the RAW only if you need to "rescue" a key image or edit that "special" one. For the rest, JPEG should be more than good enough for 99.99999% of viewing.
06-25-2013, 05:24 AM   #523
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
You're not the main market. Mobile OS devices are actually selling almost 5x the traditional OS volumes (per machine unit) and PC sales are actually falling. In fact, without government, biz, and institutional purchases, they'd be in decline.

The household OS is looking to be the AppleTV or equivalent, dedicated gaming box, many mobile OS devices, and no PC's. That's what the sales data predicts as fewer and fewer homes upgrade their home PC.

And remember: North America is king of the home PC. Europe is a distant second, and most of the growth areas of the world have completely bypassed them, just like they bypassed telephone landlines.

As a camera manufacturer, you cannot rely on your consumer having on anymore. If you are a DSLR company like Pentax, this poses an issue.
I get a new smartphone from Verizon every two years but I don't replace my laptop , Mac and PC every two years so that is why smartphones are selling at a much higher rate. I use my Apple TV everyday with my Samsung HDTV and to airplay with my iPad and MacBook Air. In our home when the kids play online games like Minecraft and they use the fastest device the PC. The PC will never die, try playing Crysis 3 on a smartphone.
06-25-2013, 05:50 AM   #524
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Aren't aware or don't care.

50% of the workforce and especially those with discretionary $$'s already spend their "work" time in front of a screen.

We say PP "workflow" like it's a good thing!

That is the LAST thing most people want to do with their images. As with film and lab processing, they just want it done at the taking stage.

People here overestimate the amount of PP done by consumers. I bet in the DSLR market less than 10% actually do much PP. DSLR-iPhoto-Facebook with no editing in between is the more likely path. You do NOT need RAW for that so long as the in-camera JPEG output is very good.

JPEG is archival, while no proprietary RAW is. DNG may become an archival intermediary in the near future. With advent of larger storage SD cards, shooting RAW+ is better for most consumers. Use the RAW only if you need to "rescue" a key image or edit that "special" one. For the rest, JPEG should be more than good enough for 99.99999% of viewing.
There was a time when RAW file output was available on very few cameras outside of the DSLR world and some high-end rangefinders. Now, it seems we find it on more cameras than ever before. As for iPhoto, they've made PP as easy as hitting the "Enhance" button for those who don't want to learn anything about PP (along with a useful set of individual adjustments). I imagine people must be using the Enhance button if nothing else at least some of the time.
06-25-2013, 06:04 AM   #525
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
I get a new smartphone from Verizon every two years but I don't replace my laptop , Mac and PC every two years so that is why smartphones are selling at a much higher rate. I use my Apple TV everyday with my Samsung HDTV and to airplay with my iPad and MacBook Air. In our home when the kids play online games like Minecraft and they use the fastest device the PC. The PC will never die, try playing Crysis 3 on a smartphone.
The biggest emerging markets have puny laptop/desktop sales.

YOU may have that arrangement, but 60+% of the world market does not. They don't have the infrastructure. XBox. PS3, and Wii did very well in markets where there is no home PC (and likely never will be) which is by far most of the emerging economies with 8x the market of North America.

WoW is in decline because one of its largest markets was South Korea, and so many young people in that market are now putting their $$'s into mobile OS's and abandoning PC investments.

Just like $$'s that went into P&S cameras are going into smartphones now. The home PC is not an appliance in most of the world. we did not require a darkroom to process our film photos so now we need that done in-camera and online, not through the home darkroom. That's where the market is moving...fast.
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