Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
06-25-2013, 06:05 AM   #526
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,791
QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
There was a time when RAW file output was available on very few cameras outside of the DSLR world and some high-end rangefinders. Now, it seems we find it on more cameras than ever before. As for iPhoto, they've made PP as easy as hitting the "Enhance" button for those who don't want to learn anything about PP (along with a useful set of individual adjustments). I imagine people must be using the Enhance button if nothing else at least some of the time.
You still don't need RAW to do that. Works just fine with JPEG.

06-25-2013, 06:39 AM   #527
Pentaxian
mecrox's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,994
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The biggest emerging markets have puny laptop/desktop sales.

YOU may have that arrangement, but 60+% of the world market does not. They don't have the infrastructure. XBox. PS3, and Wii did very well in markets where there is no home PC (and likely never will be) which is by far most of the emerging economies with 8x the market of North America.

WoW is in decline because one of its largest markets was South Korea, and so many young people in that market are now putting their $$'s into mobile OS's and abandoning PC investments.

Just like $$'s that went into P&S cameras are going into smartphones now. The home PC is not an appliance in most of the world. we did not require a darkroom to process our film photos so now we need that done in-camera and online, not through the home darkroom. That's where the market is moving...fast.
Ho hum. Folks who can afford several hundred bucks for a DSLR are the established or emerging middle classes in much of the new economies. And as we know, for those who are keen on photography, that sum is just the beginning. Perhaps a higher proportion of these more affluent families are likely to have laptops? Particularly if they have kids of college age, or they are kids are college. I really don't see it going laptops 0%, tablets 100% unless and until tablets and laptops have morphed into one another (which would be my guess for the future of these devices).

So, anyway, the higher up the scale you go, the more of the market is likely to have some decent computing power to hand. As for the bit which doesn't, which might be the old P&S market, perhaps that one is simply lost to the camera-makers. There is simply no point buying a compact camera these days if your only use for it is casual and occasional and not for prints, or you are affluent enough simply to buy one anyway. A phone will fill in for those times pretty well and camera phones are only going to improve.

This must be causing some camera-makers to reach for the tranquilizers. The loss of the compact market and a slowdown in the higher-end market as digital imaging matures and consumers need to upgrade far less often - these do not presage good times especially as some emerging economies - China, Brazil - are looking less resilient and more credit-bubbled by the day.

Perhaps this is a reason for some of the frantic pace of new models, new this, new that, among some camera-makers recently - Olympus, Nikon, Sony, maybe Fuji? They are trying to claim territory and build identity before there is no more territory to claim.
06-25-2013, 07:39 AM   #528
Pentaxian
Clavius's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: De Klundert
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,115
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
we did not require a darkroom to process our film photos
Excuse me?! Where did you used to bring your film to have it developed? The film-fairy? Or did you exlusively shoot polaroid?

It's a true blessing that we're able to process our own foto's at home now, instead of having to send it elsewhere. Lets not give that away because of the instagram crowd. Their online storage and processing is nothing to be jealous of. And lets not process our photos via our cameras with their tiny LCD screens and fidgitty controls!

Without a real PC, the DSLR, or any other serious camera is unusable. What are we going to do with our high fps cameras and big buffers if those tools fill up our Ipads to the brim within 10 seconds?

Last edited by Clavius; 06-25-2013 at 07:48 AM.
06-25-2013, 07:47 AM   #529
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,791
QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Ho hum. Folks who can afford several hundred bucks for a DSLR are the established or emerging middle classes in much of the new economies. And as we know, for those who are keen on photography, that sum is just the beginning. Perhaps a higher proportion of these more affluent families are likely to have laptops? Particularly if they have kids of college age, or they are kids are college. I really don't see it going laptops 0%, tablets 100% unless and until tablets and laptops have morphed into one another (which would be my guess for the future of these devices).
Not 100% down, but people don't see the PC as necessary for the photograph to be creative.

They see the big screen as the consumptive.

No workflow for the vast majority of the DSLR market.

And the big surge in netbooks and MacBook Airs are not capable of high-end processing like RAW libraries in any case.

Yes, there are far too many models in the pipe right now.

06-25-2013, 07:48 AM   #530
Pentaxian
mecrox's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,994
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Without a real PC, the DSLR, or any other serious camera is unusable. What are we going to do with our high fps cameras and big buffers if those tools fill up our Ipads to the brim within 10 seconds?
I agree, but perhaps it's only an issue today. If in a new years tablets and laptops have merged into one device - tablet form factor, separate keyboard for those who want one, internals comparable to a laptop in power - then it won't matter so much or at all, unless the operating-system boys run RAW right out of town because it isn't mobile-friendly. I don't see this as very likely. However, that still leaves full, careful editing for which you really need a big screen which can do accurate colour with a decent gamut and a lot of fast storage. So I for one will not be welcoming our new mobile-only overlords. I'll still have a desk set-up.
06-25-2013, 08:00 AM   #531
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,791
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Excuse me?! Where did you used to bring your film to have it developed? The film-fairy? Or did you exlusively shoot polaroid?

It's a true blessing that we're able to process our own foto's at home now, instead of having to send it elsewhere. Lets not give that away because of the instagram crowd. Their online storage and processing is nothing to be jealous of.

Without a real PC, the DSLR, or any other serious camera is unusable. What are we going to do with our high fps cameras and big buffers if those tools fill up our Ipads to the brim within 10 seconds?
The lab was good enough and sustained the market. Drop off or mail order labs were always 99% of the film photo market.

The home darkroom was always a very tiny niche in photography.

Remember Kodak's founding motto:

"You press the button, we do the rest."

That has not changed for how consumers view photography in the market and cultural space. Digital didn't change it all that much in reality. People use iPhoto and Picasa to manage their shoebox, not edit very much.

The idea that people will load their photos onto a PC and play around with them appeals only to a very small minority in an industry that requires volume to sell. Most user do not ever have the intention of using sliders to massage photos into IQ dreamland. From my experience with dozens of soccer moms and dads (I am one myself and a coach as well) is they buy a DSLR for fast AF, zoom lens reach, and better IQ. but they are almost all very happy with out-of-the-box IQ. They have zero interest in "workflow", not for family photos.

Any camera maker that relies on a "real PC" in the next few years to drive volume sales of their DSLR's will fail. Sensor size and MP's and file formats are all going to be more conforming to mobile OS's and bandwidth, plus hooks to apps and online creatures like Flickr and Facebook.

The home PC and pro photo apps are not going anywhere. They just aren't main drivers of the volume of sales despite what many hobbyists here think.
06-25-2013, 08:34 AM   #532
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2012
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,728
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
You still don't need RAW to do that. Works just fine with JPEG.
"Fine" is a relative term but, for practical purposes, no one thinks PP works as well on JPEG images as it does on RAW images.

More to the point -- camera makers are including RAW capability on more and more cameras while PP tools are becoming more and more affordable (free in many cases). Put those two observations together and you can at least make a case that we'll see more and not less at-home manipulation of images. Sure, not all images but some of them.

Also, how many people in this world own a DSLR but don't own a computer? My guess is not many in percentage terms.
06-25-2013, 08:56 AM   #533
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,791
QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
"Fine" is a relative term but, for practical purposes, no one thinks PP works as well on JPEG images as it does on RAW images.

More to the point -- camera makers are including RAW capability on more and more cameras while PP tools are becoming more and more affordable (free in many cases). Put those two observations together and you can at least make a case that we'll see more and not less at-home manipulation of images. Sure, not all images but some of them.

Also, how many people in this world own a DSLR but don't own a computer? My guess is not many in percentage terms.
We'll see less home manipulation, by far, because people are not buying the processing power. Instead their discretionary income is going towards mobile OS and networking.

All RAW processing is doing is turning into a $0.99 app. It's the all-terrain tire on the 4WD drive SUV that never goes off-road...ever.

All told there may be over 100 million DSLR's in circulation. Sales of LR, Aperture, and other dedicated processing apps are less than 10% that installed base. Even if you throw in the "freebies" like iPhoto which can process RAW, there is little evidence of widespread PP adoption for the remaining 90% of the market. In fact, looking at the explosion of online sharing, most people have instead opted to do less processing and more sharing straight from cameraphone to the cloud. Any processing is done front-end, by the app filter chosen. Every shot taken with a cameraphone is a shot not taken with a dedicated camera. In the secular run, that's lost camera maker sales.

The habit of no PP is dominant and growing. If you base your DSLR or P&S camera sale model on PP you are a dead brand. Why do you think almost all review sites use JPEG in the default test?

Finally, the largest areas of camera sales growth has come from Asia where PC ownership is very, very small. they skipped PC's like they skipped telephony landlines, and went straight to netbooks and mobile OS's. That's your growing, soon to be majority market. I've been to Asia and Africa (not for awhile) and the home PC is extremely rare but the mobile OS very, very common. No one today would reasonably build a business model for home PC growth in economies with emerging consumer middle class. The PC is pure overkill for most uses.

06-25-2013, 10:05 AM - 1 Like   #534
Pentaxian
philbaum's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA
Posts: 3,659
Original Poster
"The tyranny of the majority"

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
......
The home PC and pro photo apps are not going anywhere. They just aren't main drivers of the volume of sales despite what many hobbyists here think.
This phrase has been around in American justice discussions for a long time. It conveys the observation that minority populations often suffer things like employment discrimination because they don't belong to the majority tribe.

Well it also happens in the marketplace. Some of the niche customers can lose access to desired products when the majority decides they want something else.

But I agree with Aristophanes statement entirely. Folks that are really enthusiasts or are professionals in photography, are willing to spend a lot of money to buy equipment and software to continue their art or profession. Nikon, Canon, Sony, Pentax and others all seem convinced that the most lucrative part of the camera market are the expensive DSLRs.

Cagey manufacturers try to build products that will appeal not only to the majority users, but niche markets that are more discerning/specialized as well. At least thats what i hope will continue to happen. The more niche consumer groups that one can sell to, the lower the prices are for that product since the overhead costs can be spread over a larger number of consumers. And the converse is true - higher prices for a more specialized camera, i.e, the Sony RX-1 is one example - FF camera that has one fixed lens.

As to RAW, it was obvious to me with the K10 and even the K20, that when one started using the software control sliders to adjust an image, that noise artifacts quickly limited the amount of adjustment possible. When the Sony exmor sensors started to appear, as in the K5, suddenly, the same software controls could be used to a greater degree. The appeal of firmware presets in camera bodies, is that the manufacturer can remove post processing frustrations away from the consumer and allow quick image adjustments. I think we can expect to see more of this in-camera stuff. Not that i like it - I don't. I'd much rather see more flexibility by software out of the camera. But i can deal with it as along as manufacturers allow enthusiasts to take a different course.

All in all an interesting discussion - not that i agree with it entirely, but somewhat - yes.

Last edited by philbaum; 06-25-2013 at 10:10 AM.
06-25-2013, 10:12 AM   #535
Pentaxian
Clavius's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: De Klundert
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,115
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
From my experience with dozens of soccer moms and dads (I am one myself and a coach as well) is they buy a DSLR for fast AF, zoom lens reach, and better IQ. but they are almost all very happy with out-of-the-box IQ. They have zero interest in "workflow", not for family photos.
Yes we all know the type. They're completely oblivious to the fact that they don't need a DSLR for that. My HTC One already is more then capable for that fast AF, zoom reach and the IQ is very good. So, I don't get your point. Any camera maker that doesn't make phones to drive volume sales will have the same hard time as that camera maker that relies on that real PC of yours. Camera makers should steer towards the enthusiasts, pro's and lower volumes, or become phone companies.
06-25-2013, 11:01 AM   #536
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,791
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Yes we all know the type. They're completely oblivious to the fact that they don't need a DSLR for that. My HTC One already is more then capable for that fast AF, zoom reach and the IQ is very good. So, I don't get your point. Any camera maker that doesn't make phones to drive volume sales will have the same hard time as that camera maker that relies on that real PC of yours. Camera makers should steer towards the enthusiasts, pro's and lower volumes, or become phone companies.
My point?

You are wrong. Your HTC one cannot focus as fast as a PDAF DSLR, has much lower quality, and so on.

MY main point is one can get excellent quality without having to resort to PP RAW.

Any camera maker that relies on a desk/laptop OS to drive sales will fail; they need to accommodate mobile OS. That is where their current and future customers will live.

If camera makers steer towards lower volumes then you will see $7,000 FF's and $3,000 APS DSLR's. Volume is what keeps the tech curve affordable. An elitist argument about who should use what is pointlessly self-destructive.
06-25-2013, 02:25 PM - 1 Like   #537
Pentaxian
gazonk's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Oslo area, Norway
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,510
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Because iOS and Android were designed from the groun-up to be low-power, low-bandwidth devices.
Of course they were. But you're not paying attention if you think they'll never be powerful enough to process RAW smoothly. The current iPad model is 4x as fast as the first iPad...

The whole idea that it makes more sense to create JPEGs on a tiny camera processor than to do that processing on a tablet just makes no sense.
06-25-2013, 03:23 PM   #538
Veteran Member
tclausen's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,399
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
My point?

You are wrong. Your HTC one cannot focus as fast as a PDAF DSLR, has much lower quality, and so on.

MY main point is one can get excellent quality without having to resort to PP RAW.

Any camera maker that relies on a desk/laptop OS to drive sales will fail; they need to accommodate mobile OS. That is where their current and future customers will live.

If camera makers steer towards lower volumes then you will see $7,000 FF's and $3,000 APS DSLR's. Volume is what keeps the tech curve affordable. An elitist argument about who should use what is pointlessly self-destructive.
Dear Aristophanes,

I hereby absolve you of any obligations to ever set your camera in RAW mode, ever again.

In addition, I'll embark on a venture to identify a camera without a RAW setting, which you may proceed to purchase so as to no longer suffer from the very existence of RAW files in your world.

06-25-2013, 07:52 PM   #539
Pentaxian
Uluru's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Back to my Walkabout Creek
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,483
From the Consolidated Results for the year ended March 31, 2013

Ricoh Co., Ltd. Consolidated Results for the year ended March 31, 2013

Ricoh's CEO summary words about cameras and optics part of Ricoh, in brief:

"Everything is growing well in these areas […] K30, K5II, Q10 are unique offer and doing well … Q10 being a market leader in Q3 2012 […]

However, these products are still weak, so in fiscal 2013 we plan to further strengthen this area so as it will make substantial contribution to our business results. […]

This net income drop in Q4 2012 is affected by sorting out our legacies, thus Pentax Ricoh Imaging itself have grown to a successful level. In this period some clean-ups of the past legacies and related activities were booked in structure reform cost. So I strong believe that this area of business will make contribution in fiscal 2013.

In April Pentax Ricoh developed GR, hi end compact, which is very well received. Some low end products were developed by other companies, and they will make a good range of offer."
06-25-2013, 08:43 PM   #540
Site Supporter




Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,885
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Aperture, and other dedicated processing apps are less than 10% that installed base.
Obviously you have statistical proof of this otherwise you would not be able to make this claim, can you show us the facts and figures ?

Greetings
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
cameras, dslr, japan, lens, mirrorless, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, percent, production, sales, sony
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
BCN Mirrorless camera sales ranking for 2012 Christine Tham Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 6 01-04-2013 12:05 AM
2012 Camera Sales in Japan JPT Photographic Industry and Professionals 12 01-01-2013 06:14 AM
Pentax Q sales in Japan Paul Ewins Pentax Q 11 11-03-2012 05:34 AM
Quotes from a Sales Rep of Pentax (Japan) leonsroar Pentax News and Rumors 45 05-26-2012 04:04 AM
Sales of the K-x in Japan pushed back 17 days creampuff Pentax News and Rumors 13 10-11-2009 04:20 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:50 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top