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07-06-2013, 03:45 PM   #736
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Or see it as a detriment at that price point to the Pentax brand and buy a Canon or a Nikon.
.
It is the obvious move that stops the race to the bottom, which finally kills the brand.
Imagine an offer that is so good in every respect, and so cheap, people would demand more and more for the same rock bottom price. In two years people would demand K5II class camera to launched at that same rock bottom price.
But by disabling a few key features and saying "That's it folks, this is the rock bottom we can afford to stay in business", they save their production, save their capital investment, save their future.
And people being people as they already are, they will buy tons of K500s, despite lack of AF point conformation, same as the bought tons of K-x cameras.
So you see, it's incredibly smart move to disable the AF confirmation point.

07-06-2013, 03:58 PM   #737
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Are you saying the K-x was a failure, which drove many potential Pentax customers to Canikon?
I think Aristophanes tries to say that Pentax probably had made more money on K-x if it had AF-points in VF.

On K-m and K-x Pentax at least had a purpose for removing AF-points, as they then could make the bodys a little smaller. On K-500 the only purpose of removing AF-points is that they can cut a few cents on manufacturing cost. But removing a vital function like this probably make bad reviews/publicity so they risk loosing much more on sales than that they save on manufacturing cost.

Marketing decisions like this might add to Pentax reputation of having worthless AF, and might cost more than just sales on K-500. Removing AF-points is probably a much bigger deal today than it was 4-5 years ago when K-m and K-x was released.
07-06-2013, 04:20 PM   #738
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The main reason I worry about the missing AF overlays in K-500 is that beginners might buy the camera, then get frustrated with the focus being "wrong", call it "crap" and leave Pentax. Just because they can't see which AF point the camera chose. It would be better if the camera had a smaller buffer for example, or cheaper processor. But I guess all of those wouldn't really make it much cheaper
07-06-2013, 06:02 PM - 1 Like   #739
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QuoteQuote:
The main reason I worry about the missing AF overlays in K-500 is that beginners might buy the camera, then get frustrated with the focus being "wrong", call it "crap" and leave Pentax. Just because they can't see which AF point the camera chose. It would be better if the camera had a smaller buffer for example, or cheaper processor. But I guess all of those wouldn't really make it much cheaper
/
I think you guys are overanalysing and want to se people as dumb as possible, and unable to discern what's better for them.
The point is to give them a choice, which Pentax did not manage to do so far.

If on the shelf are two Pentax cameras, say K500 and K50, the better choice is obvious. One camera model is deliberately made cheaper for those willing to live with compromises. Pentax gives different values than CaNiSony, and compromises aren't the same either. With a 100% view pentaprism, one can argue that with a kit lens one doesn't need AF blink confirmation anyway because clear focus *IS* clearly visible.

AF points do make sense on horrible, dimmed pentamirrors which cover just 88% or 90% of the view.
But this 100% pentaprism is something entirely different. It's an upper level goodie given for nothing in an entry body. Just to align 100% view pentaprism costs Pentax much more than Nikon spends in entry level offer, because Nikon worries about alignment in their D7000 range and up.

In my own shooting I've used to rely more on visual feedback through the clear 100% view pentaprism than through an AF blink. Focus point is approximate anyway, the size of it unknown, so AF blink is more misleading and not often correct. However, 100% pentaprism clearly shows clear focus without a need to take a shot and confirm.

Give people a D3200 and a K500, and I bet people will see better and know exactly they have focused on with the K500. Show them they can use focus ring too, and suddenly focusing becomes a 3D experience — impossible to replicate with D3200, D5200, etc.

You underestimate dual wheel and 100% view pentaprism, big time — they make all the difference.

But instead you're refuting automatically, not thinking clearly what you're trying to refute.


Last edited by Uluru; 07-06-2013 at 06:54 PM.
07-07-2013, 12:31 AM   #740
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
/
I think you guys are overanalysing and want to se people as dumb as possible, and unable to discern what's better for them.
The point is to give them a choice, which Pentax did not manage to do so far.

If on the shelf are two Pentax cameras, say K500 and K50, the better choice is obvious. One camera model is deliberately made cheaper for those willing to live with compromises. Pentax gives different values than CaNiSony, and compromises aren't the same either. With a 100% view pentaprism, one can argue that with a kit lens one doesn't need AF blink confirmation anyway because clear focus *IS* clearly visible.

AF points do make sense on horrible, dimmed pentamirrors which cover just 88% or 90% of the view.
But this 100% pentaprism is something entirely different. It's an upper level goodie given for nothing in an entry body. Just to align 100% view pentaprism costs Pentax much more than Nikon spends in entry level offer, because Nikon worries about alignment in their D7000 range and up.

In my own shooting I've used to rely more on visual feedback through the clear 100% view pentaprism than through an AF blink. Focus point is approximate anyway, the size of it unknown, so AF blink is more misleading and not often correct. However, 100% pentaprism clearly shows clear focus without a need to take a shot and confirm.

Give people a D3200 and a K500, and I bet people will see better and know exactly they have focused on with the K500. Show them they can use focus ring too, and suddenly focusing becomes a 3D experience — impossible to replicate with D3200, D5200, etc.

You underestimate dual wheel and 100% view pentaprism, big time — they make all the difference.

But instead you're refuting automatically, not thinking clearly what you're trying to refute.
A big majority of K500 target users don't give a damn about VF AF overlay and those who end up understnding what they miss will upgrade, either to K50 (not many) or K5 or whatever will be higher than K50 in the range at the time.
07-07-2013, 12:50 AM   #741
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Actually k500 would have been an ideal ground for Pentax to try EVF. K50 was there for who don't like It.
07-07-2013, 01:14 AM   #742
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The first "feature" they can use to attract entry-level customers is the price.
Surprisingly, don't you think? It's not some obscure feature hidden deep inside the optical viewfinder, but something clearly written on a label, just in front of the camera.
07-07-2013, 02:47 AM   #743
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QuoteOriginally posted by yusuf Quote
Actually k500 would have been an ideal ground for Pentax to try EVF. K50 was there for who don't like It.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2
Hadn't thought about it that way, that's a good point and would have been a good strategy indeed.

07-07-2013, 05:22 AM   #744
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
A big majority of K500 target users don't give a damn about VF AF overlay and those who end up understnding what they miss will upgrade, either to K50 (not many) or K5 or whatever will be higher than K50 in the range at the time.
I think that too, but in any case, a K5II league pentaprism and 100% view are God-send in an entry level body. It's almost unbelievable to be true.

Dimmed entry level pentamirrors and horrible 4/3 viewfinders do need as many AF blinks as possible because there is no plasticity, image is distant and flat, and no clarity to see what's in focus.

This old school Pentax way is so damn smart and revealing one starts feeling photography in a whole different way. It lets you absorb the scene, sense something new.

But the major selling point for K50 isn't AF conformation blink, but weather sealing. It's worth so much, sounds so much better, that I believe it will be the sole differentiating point and people will go for it almost without a second thought.

Last edited by Uluru; 07-07-2013 at 05:29 AM.
07-07-2013, 08:37 AM   #745
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
But the major selling point for K50 isn't AF conformation blink, but weather sealing. It's worth so much, sounds so much better, that I believe it will be the sole differentiating point and people will go for it almost without a second thought.
Agree. Not having focus confirmation dots in the VF is an error in my opinion as I doubt it changed he price that much. But, for the target market it really does not matter. Most first time buyers will not even know what focus confirmation is. Many will be using the camera in LV instead of using the view finder.

What does matter is having a clearly defined (and understandable) set of features that differentiate the price points. This is has been done with the k-500 / k-50.

I noticed the camera counter in my local grocery store has both D3100 and D3200 on display. I wish they had k-500, at roughly the same price point it is the clear winner in features and build quality. And yes I said GROCERY store. That is market penetration, and that is what Pentax needs to make any headway in the US market. And that is why k-500 is a great idea, because it is attractive to retailers. And except for sales from the Pentax online store, retailers buy cameras, not consumers.
07-08-2013, 05:47 AM   #746
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
/
I think you guys are overanalysing and want to se people as dumb as possible, and unable to discern what's better for them.
The point is to give them a choice, which Pentax did not manage to do so far.

If on the shelf are two Pentax cameras, say K500 and K50, the better choice is obvious. One camera model is deliberately made cheaper for those willing to live with compromises. Pentax gives different values than CaNiSony, and compromises aren't the same either. With a 100% view pentaprism, one can argue that with a kit lens one doesn't need AF blink confirmation anyway because clear focus *IS* clearly visible.

AF points do make sense on horrible, dimmed pentamirrors which cover just 88% or 90% of the view.
But this 100% pentaprism is something entirely different. It's an upper level goodie given for nothing in an entry body. Just to align 100% view pentaprism costs Pentax much more than Nikon spends in entry level offer, because Nikon worries about alignment in their D7000 range and up.

In my own shooting I've used to rely more on visual feedback through the clear 100% view pentaprism than through an AF blink. Focus point is approximate anyway, the size of it unknown, so AF blink is more misleading and not often correct. However, 100% pentaprism clearly shows clear focus without a need to take a shot and confirm.

Give people a D3200 and a K500, and I bet people will see better and know exactly they have focused on with the K500. Show them they can use focus ring too, and suddenly focusing becomes a 3D experience impossible to replicate with D3200, D5200, etc.

You underestimate dual wheel and 100% view pentaprism, big time they make all the difference.

But instead you're refuting automatically, not thinking clearly what you're trying to refute.
Can I have your eyes please? I have a K-5, and the viewfinder is way too small for me to clearly see what is in focus. The AF indicators are better.

Also, EVF? In the K-500? If anything that should be a K-01 related camera, there is no need for a mirror. And good EVFs are not cheap. Sony charges about $240 for their EVF. Only the EVF. Without camera around it. While they probably do charge a premium I do think a mirror and pentaprism would be cheaper.
07-08-2013, 08:45 PM   #747
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Can I have your eyes please? I have a K-5, and the viewfinder is way too small for me to clearly see what is in focus. The AF indicators are better.
I guess it varies from person to person... I have both the K-x and the K-5 IIs and the difference in clarity in the viewfinder is big enough for me to actually trust my weak eyesight (though corrected with contact lenses, still not precise) when using manual lenses. I find it much, much more difficult with the K-x. I have to squint even with the VF, so I just use LV on the K-x. The D3200's is really dim compared to the K-30's.

What I'm afraid of for the K500 is, when it hits shelves, the K-30 will still be around, at least in our place, and when it comes to value-for-price, the older unit will actually be a better bargain =))
07-08-2013, 08:54 PM   #748
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
What I'm afraid of for the K500 is, when it hits shelves, the K-30 will still be around, at least in our place, and when it comes to value-for-price, the older unit will actually be a better bargain =))
I actually think that would be a great thing...it would attract new customers and they would think that Pentax is the best brand for value and getting your money's worth.
07-08-2013, 09:10 PM   #749
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Anyone in the know have word on if the WR 18-55 DAL being kitted with the K-50 will be sold separately? I have a K-30, I just want that (cheap cost) lens.
07-08-2013, 09:13 PM   #750
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I've said it before, but I think the K-500 is brilliant, and should be one of the absolute best cameras at its price point. I wouldn't be surprised if it wins best entry-level camera of the year-type awards.

Not everyone is into the styling of the K-30; it is somewhat polarizing. Putting the same camera in a more neutral housing and removing the weather sealing (which not everyone cares about) is an excellent way to offer the consumer another choice, especially with the 100% pentaprism. Looking through it in a b&m store compared to looking at its direct competition should show one of the tremendous advantages the K-500 offers.
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