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06-11-2013, 04:48 AM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
And that only because you still think the only metric for deciding on a budget for a given camera is the sensor size. And you're wrong.
The market is right and it inexorably larger sensors at the same price point will win. The Q at its current price point will be crushed by the competition. It was obsolete by design. We call that a mistake. If the price falls sub-$250 it cans tick because then it will be what it is by design...a point and shoot. but at $450+ for entry into the system there are far better options for consumers. Mu local shops don't eve carry the Q. It's a non-seller. They don't see the point.

Photography is about light. A larger sensor gathers more light. Period.

06-11-2013, 04:53 AM   #107
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Yes I know but you still don't get it. The market decides means that if products sell, it will go on. Even in a niche or whatever.
If people buy it and keep it, then it is successfull. And if Sony & co (well Nikon mostly since it seems the Q is so much better, this is tongue in cheek comment: I dunno and don't care) aren't capable to provide a fun experince with their supposedly better camera that's their loss.

I still use silver. A lot more than before in fact. Technically, digital is way better but I don't give a damn about that.
As long as poeple want something and manufacturers benefits from it, it will sell.

oh and btw, Pentaw was a lot too late for competing in the APS mirrorless IMO (their fault it is, indeed or rather Hoya's).
06-11-2013, 04:55 AM - 1 Like   #108
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TTU - time to unsubscribe.
Inevitably all threads regarding upcoming models/features deteriorate into pissing contests about something.
I try to drop out at the first sign but apparently I've stuck around too long.
06-11-2013, 05:12 AM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
With that sensor, yes. That's the only viable price point. I am seeing Nikon 1's and m43's below $350 with a kit now. The market space above US$250 is being occupied by larger sensor cameras with substantially better IQ.
I'm sure anyone here can find a closeout price on an overstocked camera that's quite low but is that representative of the market? From what I can see, the going USA rate for Nikon's current technology 1" MILC w/ 10-30 lens is about $550.

Nikon 1 J3 Mirrorless Digital Camera with 10-30mm Lens 27637 B&H

06-11-2013, 06:04 AM   #110
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And the Q is $500 while the J 2 is $50 cheaper and 3x the sensor size and faster AF!

The problem with the Q is price/sensor value ratio. That's why Pentax is dead last in mirror less market share.

If the Q had the same sensor as the CX Nikon's and Sony's together with its superior classic camera engineering it would not be dead last. Nice camera, shame about the sensor.
06-11-2013, 06:19 AM - 1 Like   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And the Q is $500 while the J 2 is $50 cheaper and 3x the sensor size and faster AF!

The problem with the Q is price/sensor value ratio. That's why Pentax is dead last in mirror less market share.

If the Q had the same sensor as the CX Nikon's and Sony's together with its superior classic camera engineering it would not be dead last. Nice camera, shame about the sensor.


Nah, they'd still be "dead last." Pentax is a niche player.
PentaxForums is filled with people constantly comparing themselves to Nikon or Canon -- which completely ignores market realities. People on this forum even ignore Pentax itself, which has created a dedicated APS-C system, a 645D system, and the diminutive Q -- which all have one thing in common, the only thing in the market like it. That's how they coexist with other niche players and the big 2 -- offering stuff others don't. If you fall outside of that niche, that doesn't mean Pentax is heading in the wrong direction, it means you're using the wrong product.
06-11-2013, 06:20 AM - 1 Like   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And the Q is $500 while the J 2 is $50 cheaper and 3x the sensor size and faster AF!

The problem with the Q is price/sensor value ratio. That's why Pentax is dead last in mirror less market share.

If the Q had the same sensor as the CX Nikon's and Sony's together with its superior classic camera engineering it would not be dead last. Nice camera, shame about the sensor.
The main reason the Q is down in market share is due to Marketing Budget... Plain and simple. The Nikon is a nightmare to use, its more like an iPod than a camera, but Nikon have a massive marketing budget and most people are aware of the J1 (camera enthusiasts or not). Very few have heard of the Q.
06-11-2013, 06:27 AM - 6 Likes   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Photography is about light. A larger sensor gathers more light. Period.
This is where we differ. Photography is about LIFE. Screw the market trends, screw the focus groups, screw the sales charts, I want a camera that gathers more LIFE. Period.





Last edited by johnmflores; 06-11-2013 at 06:59 AM.
06-11-2013, 06:50 AM - 2 Likes   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
If the Q had the same sensor as the CX Nikon's and Sony's together with its superior classic camera engineering it would not be dead last. Nice camera, shame about the sensor.
I don't know, I increasinly think that it's hard to argue with you.

Pentax has a smaller sensor than anyone on the market. Aristophanes: "It's last because of the sensor size".
Pentax has the same sensor as the CX Nikon. Aristophanes: "Pentax is too expensive even though it's much better built".
Pentax has the same sensor as the Sony's: "Pentax is too little, too late in the APS-C mirrorless game".
Pentax has a full frame sensor: "The camera is too expensive even though it's much better built".
Pentax has a medium format sensor: "It's only a niche product."

Let's face the truth: Pentax will never compete on price again. Instead they'll continue to offer well-built products with superb handling and photographer-oriented controls. Because they've chosen to do so, maybe even more so since Ricoh (a brand with equivalent build quality and controls) owns them. I certainly want them to grow bigger but it's hard to compete on price alone because Pentax wants to maintain the build quality. Do we really want them to build crappy plastic products because all other brands seem to do that? Sacrifice controls for a lower price and slightly better AF performance? Pentax is not dead but they certainly will be when they follow in Sony's, Canon's and Nikon's footsteps.
06-11-2013, 07:00 AM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And the Q is $500 while the J 2 is $50 cheaper and 3x the sensor size and faster AF!

The problem with the Q is price/sensor value ratio. That's why Pentax is dead last in mirror less market share.

If the Q had the same sensor as the CX Nikon's and Sony's together with its superior classic camera engineering it would not be dead last. Nice camera, shame about the sensor.
Is the J2 still in production or just a residual (I don't know)? But that's neither here nor there as the price points are all similar. I'm not going to disagree over the sensor size issue -- I've stated Pentax could really go after Nikon in the 1" sensor size segment, if that is a segment. But maybe they don't want to.

On market share... Pentax is way at the bottom of the MILC market because you can't buy a Pentax at the places most customers are buying that type of camera.
06-11-2013, 07:02 AM   #116
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Does anyone remember the original Minox?

My father had one of those, and it was a little jewel. People marveled at the sight of it, and he took photos seriously with the Minox even though he otherwise couldn't have cared less about photography. You would never make an enlargement from that 16mm film. In much the same way as John Flores is saying, the quality of the image-making is all about what YOU put into it. I have no idea if the sensor image quality of the Q is closer to my K20D or the *istD, and frankly I'm not about to try to figure that out. I have confidence in most aspects of the camera (other than the flash system), and that's what shows in the image-making.

I don't think Fuji has an edge in image quality with their high-end offerings, but they effectively couple quality feel with nostalgic touches that inspires a segment of the market. Pentax isn't there, and the mission of the Q system isn't particularly clear now that the elite premium miniature pricing strategy has been abandoned. If Pentax tries to compete with Nikon Series 1 directly in pricing and overall quality, Pentax loses as a matter of scale and marketing.
06-11-2013, 07:03 AM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The market is right and it inexorably larger sensors at the same price point will win. The Q at its current price point will be crushed by the competition. It was obsolete by design. We call that a mistake. If the price falls sub-$250 it cans tick because then it will be what it is by design...a point and shoot. but at $450+ for entry into the system there are far better options for consumers. Mu local shops don't eve carry the Q. It's a non-seller. They don't see the point.

Photography is about light. A larger sensor gathers more light. Period.

The Q is a seller. Close to 6% marketshare in Japan for one model only is a success in anyones book. Possibly Pentax biggest success in 30 years.
The idea that sensor size only, meaning larger is better, is a selling point is misguided. The Q is compelling because it is that small sensorwise. A camera with a biggers ensor is not a much better option because it ain't the same thing. It is a different option; not a better one. The output quality is good enough for A3+ prints; well beyond most peoples needs.
06-11-2013, 07:32 AM   #118
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Either way We like it. We Use it. It takes Photo and we are having Fun.

Photography is about Light and a Photographer knows how to use this Light and capture it to produce an image that is worth remembering.
06-11-2013, 07:32 AM - 1 Like   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And the Q is $500 while the J 2 is $50 cheaper and 3x the sensor size and faster AF!

The problem with the Q is price/sensor value ratio. That's why Pentax is dead last in mirror less market share.

If the Q had the same sensor as the CX Nikon's and Sony's together with its superior classic camera engineering it would not be dead last. Nice camera, shame about the sensor.
I think Aristophenes is warming up to the Q! Less vitriol than most of his Q posts.
06-11-2013, 08:35 AM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
There's more to life and photography than pixel-level Image Quality, and not every decision is purely rational.
I don't agree with a lot of the stuff you say on these boards, but that line got me thinking.
Unless you get paid to take pictures, who cares if the purchase is rational. And even then, people that get paid are probably not going to use the Q anyway for their money-camera, they will use it as their play camera.
People spend all kinds of money on their hobbies. Some people collect coins, stamps, watches, women etc...hell, i am an engineer, there is nothing rational about me owning a K-5 with a gang of lenses, but I still do.
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