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06-25-2013, 01:57 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bunny Gear Quote
I can't complain, 'coz I have no Pentax gear. I don't care. You are on the wrong way. Ricoh Pentax is close to ZERO for me as photo brand.
Who's the more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?
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06-25-2013, 02:06 PM   #77
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06-26-2013, 03:24 AM - 1 Like   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It's not easy to explain as it is now. So what? They just started to rebuild their APS-C line; be patient.

IMO there are two things Pentax needs:
a. volume (here, entry level cameras helps)
b. advanced cameras for which technology can trickle down to less advanced ones.
I think Pentax is trying to address both issues; which means, the K-50 and K-500 actually make sense.
Pentax has a very competitive APS-C DSLR range. I think it's best in the market. But people are unaware of it.
Ricoh must:
  • provide distribution and sales channels,
  • must do some good marketing.
Pentax engineers cannot do that. Hoya didn't do a thing about it. Pentax has been left to vultures, they can inovate, but someone must help them in marketing. They may make fantastic camera concepts, produce killer cameras and lenses, but if no one is talking about it, if it's not available to try and buy, as soon as possible, then there's no point.

Thus because of that, I'm personally sick of hearing that "Ricoh has a plan". Do you understand my rant now? I can go in the shop in Australia and see Coolpix A, it's there, but there is no GR in sight. There was just one (1!) GR camera sent to whole of Australia as a preview camera. Blunty had a chance to get it for a few hours to quickly preview it. One camera for a whole continent, with thousands of enthusiasts waiting in queue to buy it. And Ricoh Japan has sent one to Eric Kim, gratis, to have some fun with it when he's not gently stroking his Leica.

Can you believe that? And then, 10 GRs (yes, ten!) sent to Australia in the first shipment, although hundreds upon hundreds were pre-ordered. Whose problem is that?! What on Earth are they thinking?! I blame Ricoh for that. Where is their damn sales and distribution channel now they are so proud of, what they do? Drinking some beer in the pub?

Let Ricoh show their commitment, let them show how they play their part of the game.

Last edited by Uluru; 06-26-2013 at 03:49 AM.
06-26-2013, 03:44 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
There was 10 GRs (yes, ten!) sent to Australia in the first shipment. Whose problem is that?!
I've not been paying attention, but how is the Ricoh distribution working in Australia? Has CRK now fully assumed responsibility for distributing Ricoh cameras? Some of the camera stores (eg DCW) are still showing 'Ricoh Australia' as the Ricoh distributor. Maybe that is part of the problem.

06-26-2013, 03:54 AM - 3 Likes   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I've not been paying attention, but how is the Ricoh distribution working in Australia? Has CRK now fully assumed responsibility for distributing Ricoh cameras? Some of the camera stores (eg DCW) are still showing 'Ricoh Australia' as the Ricoh distributor. Maybe that is part of the problem.
It's the systemic problem. I blame Ricoh for that. CRK is distributor for Pentax and Ricoh for a while, and Ricoh had time to organise their distribution channels — more than 18 months. It is not CRK's fault that Ricoh has sent them one preview camera. Just one! Or just ten cameras in the first shipment. Yet, it's okay to give one camera for free to a blogger in the US. One spoilt blogger outweighs the needs of an entire country's market and thousands of potential new users.

I'm using this example to illustrate Ricoh's lack of commitment and a distribution dilettantism (in lack of any better word).

I've said in several occasions and will do it again: Nikon is Nikon not because they make better cameras, but because their distribution and marketing work much better. So while in the same country I can test Nikon cameras 2 weeks after the announcement, I must wait 3-4 months to test Pentax cameras.

Nikon is obviously not waiting for a shipment of 15 large office printers coming seasonally to squeeze in a few boxes of cameras with it. Ricoh, it seems, doesn't understand the game they are now in, they don't understand the agility of camera markets, they don't understand how fast they must act in international markets — not at all — and it's about time they wake up.

So, Ricoh, did you wake up?

Last edited by Uluru; 06-26-2013 at 04:44 AM.
06-26-2013, 09:06 AM   #81
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Can't say I disagree with Uluru about Aus. but we also don't know how many CR Kennedy ordered. Might have been only ten.

I once wrote that equity analysts called any Ricoh plan to invest the necessary funds in DigiCams to make it them significant competitor a "threat to our earnings projection." I was called a "Golden Boy" financier after that one - and lots more that can't be reiterated here without a mods warning. Ricoh still has some more financial recovering yet to do. As a global enterprise they actually have less available capital (over the short term) than we think.

In the USA PRAC can't just wave a magic wand and expect the distribution channel to restore itself. Dealers and box store retailers still have too little trust after the way they were treated by Hoya to take a risk. There remains a significant amount of work to do. Of course they have a plan. If you listen carefully, everything they have said is followed by, "over the intermediate term," which I interpret to mean a few years, not a few months or quarters.
06-26-2013, 10:08 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Can't say I disagree with Uluru about Aus. but we also don't know how many CR Kennedy ordered. Might have been only ten.

I once wrote that equity analysts called any Ricoh plan to invest the necessary funds in DigiCams to make it them significant competitor a "threat to our earnings projection." I was called a "Golden Boy" financier after that one - and lots more that can't be reiterated here without a mods warning. Ricoh still has some more financial recovering yet to do. As a global enterprise they actually have less available capital (over the short term) than we think.

In the USA PRAC can't just wave a magic wand and expect the distribution channel to restore itself. Dealers and box store retailers still have too little trust after the way they were treated by Hoya to take a risk. There remains a significant amount of work to do. Of course they have a plan. If you listen carefully, everything they have said is followed by, "over the intermediate term," which I interpret to mean a few years, not a few months or quarters.
Frankly I think box store retailers care little abut the past treatment. They are far more concerned about the Amazon and showrooming effect and the status of so many storefront retailers is a question mark. Locally my area is pretty much down to 2 big box chains and a single dedicated camera chain. Now, the latter's only way to differentiate between itself and the big box stores is to have a strong, focused online presence, aggressive price matching, and, carrying a wider variety of brands and specialized products (GoPro, Wacom, Sigma) and peripherals.

Ricoh's biz channel is a non-factor for Pentax cameras. Cameras are a consumer electronics now and Ricoh's copier line is not in the same realm. I don't think B&M presence is necessarily a huge issue when online presence is now how a great many consumers shop (review shopping). This is where niche brands can thrive with lower overhead and have a few select B&M carry the product for hands-on.

What is dead is the traditional Japanese sales structure of lots of products with little differentiation spread over multiple price points, distributed everywhere by just-in-time delivery. That is being replaced rapidly by early release online product reviews and pointers to select online retailers or B&M stores. It is obvious the latter is how Pentax is going to operate as we can see with the colourful K-50 array which can only be distributed this way. I think Pentax would be well off to accept 50% of their US retail through B&H, Adorama, and Amazon, and the rest to a select group of B&M retailers. In fact, I would not be surprised to see this is already the case.
06-26-2013, 10:13 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Pentax has a very competitive APS-C DSLR range. I think it's best in the market. But people are unaware of it.
Yet there are few "inconsistencies", e.g. video compression, focus peaking... Those will naturally be solved with new products.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Thus because of that, I'm personally sick of hearing that "Ricoh has a plan". Do you understand my rant now? I can go in the shop in Australia and see Coolpix A, it's there, but there is no GR in sight. There was just one (1!) GR camera sent to whole of Australia as a preview camera. Blunty had a chance to get it for a few hours to quickly preview it. One camera for a whole continent, with thousands of enthusiasts waiting in queue to buy it. And Ricoh Japan has sent one to Eric Kim, gratis, to have some fun with it when he's not gently stroking his Leica.
In other words, because Ricoh doesn't properly supply Australia it means they have no plans? Come on...

Please be aware that any change (as part of their plans) will only be gradual, thus easy to miss if not carefully watching/measuring. I expect them to continue moving cautiously, not spending tons of money they probably wouldn't be able to recover but building over what they already have.
Unfortunately, underestimating the demand is part of this cautious nature (but way better than grossly overestimating it).

06-26-2013, 10:43 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Yet there are few "inconsistencies", e.g. video compression, focus peaking... Those will naturally be solved with new products.


In other words, because Ricoh doesn't properly supply Australia it means they have no plans? Come on...

Please be aware that any change (as part of their plans) will only be gradual, thus easy to miss if not carefully watching/measuring. I expect them to continue moving cautiously, not spending tons of money they probably wouldn't be able to recover but building over what they already have.
Unfortunately, underestimating the demand is part of this cautious nature (but way better than grossly overestimating it).
A quick check shows the GR on back order on Amazon in the UK, France, Germany and USA. It is also on back-order on two big online UK retailers, and in the USA in Adorama and in B&H. I don't think supply problems are just limited to one or two places outside of Japan. My usual UK Pentax dealer said their stock was sold out before they actually received it which implies the initial supply was pretty small. I expect the Nikon Coolpix A is available in most or all of these places and likely has been since day one.

I'm sure Ricoh has a plan. But if their plan involves mostly Japan and doesn't involve the country I live in, where Pentax's presence is modest to say the least, then their plan isn't much use to me. Just my 2 cents, but they really need to come off the fence and make clear whether or not they intend to be a serious international player rather than a regional outfit with sporadic activity elsewhere. This, for me, is the big one. They have the products but they don't, so far, seem to have the determination to sell them beyond the limited confines of the old Pentax network, a box of cameras here, another consignment elsewhere and count yourself lucky, etc. This is not good for folks where I live.

Of course it is excellent for Ricoh that their initial allocations around the world have sold out so fast. But they have sold far too fast to tie in effectively with the initial buzz, the online reviews and so forth. If it is really true that after launching their most important camera for years Ricoh only sent ten cameras to the whole of Australia then that isn't salesmanship or caution, it's a risible token effort.
06-26-2013, 12:14 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Can't say I disagree with Uluru about Aus. but we also don't know how many CR Kennedy ordered. Might have been only ten.

I once wrote that equity analysts called any Ricoh plan to invest the necessary funds in DigiCams to make it them significant competitor a "threat to our earnings projection." I was called a "Golden Boy" financier after that one - and lots more that can't be reiterated here without a mods warning. ...
Please don't curve my precedent writings on this point.
I didn't call YOU a "goldenboy", i just marked my desagreement with their statement, that in my opinion didn't match with any common-sense analysis.
And there are quite a number of facts that definitely prove they are wrong : the best case is Sony, the group would effectively have collapsed early 2012 if they didn't have heavily invested in the photography segment since Minolta's takeover.

Of course Ricoh is no Sony.
But i don't see why Ricoh would loose income or margin in making wise marketing and investment choices in this trendily expanding hi-tech market we speak about.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 06-26-2013 at 01:06 PM.
06-26-2013, 01:02 PM   #86
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Instead of giving weak hints, Pentax Sweden/Scandinavia should get the shops in Sweden to show Pentax products.

I went the other day into a shop here in Stockholm to have a look at the K5iis. They had a K5 and a K-r on display, bottom left.
It took the guy 10 minutes to find the K5iis in his storage room. Later he wanted to sell me a D7100 or a Canon D7.
He kept telling me that the others have more megapixels and that he would chose them over the Pentax ....

Btw: I was really pleased to see again how tiny this K5iis body is compared to its competitors, and still pulling out better quality, despite having less megapixels.
06-26-2013, 01:13 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Y
In other words, because Ricoh doesn't properly supply Australia it means they have no plans? Come on...

Please be aware that any change (as part of their plans) will only be gradual, thus easy to miss if not carefully watching/measuring. I expect them to continue moving cautiously, not spending tons of money they probably wouldn't be able to recover but building over what they already have.
Unfortunately, underestimating the demand is part of this cautious nature (but way better than grossly overestimating it).
It's not about underestimating. GR is on backorder in the almost entire international market, while newer and newer digital cameras by other manufacturers are coming out.

GR has a shelf life of two years — by Ricoh's own claim — and the most important GR release of the decade. Pentax did outstanding job with it. So where is it?
This happened to the MX-1 (came to shelves 3-4 months after the announcement), to K5II (4-5 months after). I don't expect to see the GR on shelves before the end of July, which is 3 months after the announcement. All cameras were released under the Ricoh.

This is all about same and repeating mistake. Nikon does not make such blunders over and over again. Coolpix A is there, on the shelf. D7100 is there too. Are they such bad sellers no one wants them? But how come they were on the shelves so damn quickly? Maybe Nikon is serious about camera business, and Ricoh doesn't get it yet, like it never did? How long it takes for them to click-in and warm up?

Or let me write it again, now in bold: Ricoh is a camera business dilettante. Pentax can do the same distribution and marketing underperformance without them, so what is the point of having Ricoh?

Last edited by Uluru; 06-26-2013 at 01:27 PM.
06-26-2013, 01:13 PM   #88
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Pentax cannot control what's happening in every shop. Maybe you should've let the store owner know that you, because of that guy's advice, will still buy Pentax - but from another store?

Uluru, I'm not surprised you prefer to talk about dilettantism rather than underestimating the market. It sounds more dramatic this way

Last edited by Kunzite; 06-26-2013 at 01:25 PM.
06-26-2013, 01:51 PM   #89
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I have excluded Pentax from this conversation about marketing and distribution. Pentax makes cameras, Ricoh sells them. Since day one of acquisition till today, there was not a single instance that showed things have changed even one iota in marketing and delivery efforts.
06-26-2013, 02:21 PM   #90
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And what exactly must happen before you'd acknowledge that "one iota" was changed? But for something more substantial?

No, it's not "Pentax makes cameras, Ricoh sells them".
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