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06-26-2013, 03:55 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And what exactly must happen before you'd acknowledge that "one iota" was changed? But for something more substantial?
No, it's not "Pentax makes cameras, Ricoh sells them".
No, you tell me.
You're obviously happy with zero change because you don't like when someone is questioning anything about alleged Ricoh's performance and promises. So far, whatever is been delivered, Pentax could have done in the same old way, as it was doing it before. Be it Pentax itself, Hoya or Ricoh governing over the brand, there is no visible change whatsoever.


Last edited by Uluru; 06-26-2013 at 04:06 PM.
06-26-2013, 03:56 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
...

I once wrote that equity analysts called any Ricoh plan to invest the necessary funds in DigiCams to make it them significant competitor a "threat to our earnings projection." I was called a "Golden Boy" financier after that one - and lots more that can't be reiterated here without a mods warning. ...
I've noticed this paragraph of yours some time ago, but didn't ask anything about it then. Where did you find this info?

Inadvertently, this in fact means Pentax is sentenced to keep abreast with technology, make cameras but keep them in cupboard (?), wait till the market is even more saturated with cameras and presence of all other manufacturers, and patiently feed on thin air before some analyst gives them green light to release cameras in public? Right?

What that same analysts says about Sony, Nikon, Canon or Fuji? He/she gives them green light to flood the market in the meantime?
06-26-2013, 04:39 PM   #93
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Canon and Nikon didn't pass though their first losing fiscal year in the 18 years since becoming a public company in FY 2012 (March), forcing them to reduce their global workforce by 18%, discontinue three of their brands and restructure their finances as Ricoh just did. Ricoh's financial recovery plan continues through March, 2014.

I can't say I disagree with you (in fact I said in an earlier post I rather agree with you) but it is helpful to me at least to understand what is happening.

I know nothing about Australia and your relationship with your Distributor. I can say that in the USA Pentax Ricoh Imaging Americas Corp is working very hard at marketing first steps, but those relationship-building steps are often behind-the-scenes and invisible to end-customers. Such steps as rebuilding dealer relationships, signing (or re-signing) Dealer Agreements, establishing relationships with on-line reviewers, training contract demonstrators for upcoming Dealer shows (so that the demonstrators actually know the products) and a host of Division-level activities that Hoya ignored must be started from scratch.

These things don't happen in just 6 months (I'll give Ricoh 12-18 months to understand Pentax and count from about March, 2013). In my own global company actual benefits of our 2009 merger didn't start to appear until 3 years after the announcement and won't be fully evident until 4 years after the closing of the deal (right about now).

Facts of corporate life - whether we like them or not.
06-26-2013, 05:52 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Canon and Nikon didn't pass though their first losing fiscal year in the 18 years since becoming a public company in FY 2012 (March), forcing them to reduce their global workforce by 18%, discontinue three of their brands and restructure their finances as Ricoh just did. Ricoh's financial recovery plan continues through March, 2014.
...
In April 2013 Ricoh CEO said the company has come out of the negative. Still restructuring, but gaining momentum.
Operating income increased 21%, etc.

06-26-2013, 06:00 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
No, you tell me.
You're obviously happy with zero change because you don't like when someone is questioning anything about alleged Ricoh's performance and promises. So far, whatever is been delivered, Pentax could have done in the same old way, as it was doing it before. Be it Pentax itself, Hoya or Ricoh governing over the brand, there is no visible change whatsoever.
How long time do you think such things take? A DSLR takes about 1,5 years to develop. When Ricoh bought Pentax there was obviously going to be revisions or change of plans.
You are talking nonsense.
06-26-2013, 06:22 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
How long time do you think such things take? A DSLR takes about 1,5 years to develop. When Ricoh bought Pentax there was obviously going to be revisions or change of plans.
You are talking nonsense.
I was not talking about camera development. But asking where is improved distribution, marketing and shelf presence of whatever they have? Nikon is still 5-6x times quicker to please customers (compare 2 weeks, and 3 months to come to shelves), has at least 5-6x more active marketing, and roughly, that's how much more camera market share it has compared to Pentax.
06-27-2013, 11:22 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mace Quote
Later he wanted to sell me a D7100 or a Canon D7.
He kept telling me that the others have more megapixels and that he would chose them over the Pentax ....

Btw: I was really pleased to see again how tiny this K5iis body is compared to its competitors, and still pulling out better quality, despite having less megapixels.
Oh my, I'd have a hard time not being extremely rude to such a salesman.
06-28-2013, 12:16 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
No, you tell me.
You're obviously happy with zero change because you don't like when someone is questioning anything about alleged Ricoh's performance and promises. So far, whatever is been delivered, Pentax could have done in the same old way, as it was doing it before. Be it Pentax itself, Hoya or Ricoh governing over the brand, there is no visible change whatsoever.
I am not happy with "zero change" and I obviously never said anything like that. You were making it up.
Being realistic about what could happen is just that - being realistic; I'm well aware there are no magic wands,
OTOH, comparing Pentax Ricoh's with Nikon's capabilities at this point is not.

"alleged Ricoh's performance and promises"... interesting choice of words. I see you didn't answer: what exactly must happen before you'd acknowledge that "one iota" was changed?

Significantly improving distribution on a global scale IMHO would take longer than just developing a new camera

06-28-2013, 03:16 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
..
"alleged Ricoh's performance and promises"... interesting choice of words. I see you didn't answer: what exactly must happen before you'd acknowledge that "one iota" was changed? ...

This is an interesting question, to which I don't have a precise answer. Everyone has different expectations, and any progress is reflected through the prism of an individual's own vision.

However, what I was arguing about, is that I cannot see anything new and improved happening in the Pentax kingdom that could not be done by Pentax's old ways, using same old means and efforts. And not just that, but so far, not a single Pentax camera or product has been introduced that clearly shows significant time spent on core product enhancement which many Pentax product beg for. Yet we have seen a core enhancement of a Ricoh product.

Say, the new GR is a total overhaul of the old GR digital. I don't doubt even for a second that the new GR would be impossible to accomplish for Ricoh without some significant help from Pentax. In fact, I can go so far and say that the new GR is Pentax's child, only bearing Ricoh's name and software. So I know for sure that Pentax has worked hard on the new GR during the last 12-18 months. The exam passed with flying colours.

But what product, originally designed by Pentax, was worked on so diligently and improved upon? None so far. K50 is repacked K30 done under Hoya, it's almost the same camera. K5II is repacked K5. Q7 is almost same as Q10. Pentax's 18-135 repacked Tamron.

Pentax's own core products (DSLRs) get a facelift, but Ricoh's product get a ground up rethinking. Starting from much more refined and humanised touches to the handling of camera, to the GR lens, which has magnificent Pentax SMC coating.

The entry level offer, like the MX-1 et al, was designed in collaboration with third party suppliers, as stated by Ricoh CEO in the recent shareholder's meeting. So that is not original Pentax's camera in the real essence of that word; the lens in MX-1 is variation on one done by Sanyo for Olympus, and packaging / outer design is done Pentax. To minimise R&D cost, that's for sure.

You see, what I would like to see — finally and rather sooner than later – is a Pentax camera or lens that has been built up thoroughly by Pentax, and that was clearly done with Ricoh's financial, operational, marketing and distribution help. Why not show something entirely new so far for Pentax? Pentax users are not dumb — we know all too well what is old and what is new and what is repackaging and what is groundbreaking new. Even new colours are not new — Pentax has thought of it during the Hoya's management.

In fact, Pentax did A LOT for itself during Hoya. It all sustains us now.

So far I see that Ricoh really benefits from this marriage. But I'm yet to see whether the Ricoh's spouse is happy too and improves significantly its own merits, talents, fares and assets.

Last edited by Uluru; 06-28-2013 at 03:30 AM.
06-28-2013, 03:24 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I am not happy with "zero change" and I obviously never said anything like that. You were making it up.
Being realistic about what could happen is just that - being realistic; I'm well aware there are no magic wands,
OTOH, comparing Pentax Ricoh's with Nikon's capabilities at this point is not.

"alleged Ricoh's performance and promises"... interesting choice of words. I see you didn't answer: what exactly must happen before you'd acknowledge that "one iota" was changed?

Significantly improving distribution on a global scale IMHO would take longer than just developing a new camera
The frustration doesn't come from the products, surely, which are good and sometimes outstanding ones, but from the feeling that the customer is being left to join up the dots with regard to the kind of company Pentax is and where it would like to go. It's the old communication problem, and (Imho) those halting, evasive, elliptical interviews given in Japanese over the past two years have only made things worse. Better they had been given in English by an upbeat marketing professional or not at all.

You can see this quite clearly on Pentax's excellent UK Facebook page. This is full of colour pictures, news and activity and I like it a great deal - this is Ricoh working. But the whole doesn't quite add up when one looks closer.

For example, the page majors on the Optio WG and Q series and overall on the young crowd - look at who the Pentax Ambassasors are and what they are using. There is a lot of coverage of the 645D via one of the Amabassadors, Christopher Bissell. This is pure marketing and well worth it, I'd have thought. Almost no one will buy a 645D but the "halo" it attracts is fabulous publicity. However, there is a pretty darn large hole where "APS-C DSLR" ought to be. Sure, Pentax have announced them, and there is some news on the page here and there. But the K series cameras are simply not being pushed - my impression is that they are back seat. Since most folks by far on this forum are committed APS-C DSLR folks, and since most B&M camera stores are large-sensor stores too, this is unsettling perhaps. And, alas, beyond being announced, the Ricoh GR has simply disappeared - not one iota of the street photography marketing Nikon were pushing.

As I said, I think this page shows a very positive face for Ricoh. But, based solely on this page and its overall balance of marketing and activity, can you tell me what kind of company Pentax Ricoh is and where it is going - particularly with regard to their line of APS-C DSLRs and things like the lens catalogue behind them?

A couple of small points of comparison.

The Pentax UK Facebook page
A Nikon UK Facebook page
A Canon UK Facebook page

Edit: I should add that imho, the Pentax page looks livelier and overall better, zingy-ier, than either of the other two despite Pentax probably having to put their stuff together on a tenth of the budget and staffing hours available to the big two. They are doing a good job, here anyway, of making a little go a long way.

Last edited by mecrox; 06-28-2013 at 06:35 AM.
06-28-2013, 03:38 AM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
... Since most folks by far on this forum are committed APS-C DSLR folks, and since most B&M camera stores are large-sensor stores too, this is unsettling perhaps. And, alas, beyond being announced, the Ricoh GR has simply disappeared - not one iota of the street photography marketing Nikon were pushing.
As I said, I think this page shows a very positive face for Ricoh. But, based solely on this page and its overall balance of marketing and activity, can you tell me what kind of company Pentax Ricoh is and where it is going - particularly with regard to their line of APS-C DSLRs and things like the lens catalogue behind them?
On the other hand, PRIC USA has been advertising GR quite a bit on their Facebook page. I last checked a month ago, though. They also were into K30's colours, and the Q10. Perhaps Carlson is more into DSLRs and colours for the US market push.

But the essence of our nervousness here is rooted fact that Pentax DSLR users know all too well that Pentax DSLRs need a significant improvement and catching with the rest of of the advanced DSLR world in some important areas: AF, video, tethering, wireless, flash system, more lenses, FF.

The list is really long, however, it doesn't mean we'd love to see all that at once. At least something that shows things are moving on. But so far, nothing from the important list materialised. And we are talking about core Pentax products — DSLRs. All we see are Pentax's own low to mid range core products (DSLRs) getting a mere facelift, but Ricoh's product getting a ground up rethinking.
06-28-2013, 04:07 AM   #102
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Or let's put it bluntly like this:

Pentax can find priorities, ways, and reasons, and time and avoid excuses to squeeze in a 9 times bigger APS-C sensor in a pocket camera to revamp it completely and excite its customers, but (!) Pentax cannot find priorities, ways, reasons, and time and avoid excuses to squeeze in an FF sensor in an already big DSLR to revamp it completely and excite its customers?

Gimme a break!
06-28-2013, 04:23 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Or let's put it bluntly like this:

Pentax can find priorities, ways, and reasons, and time and avoid excuses to squeeze in a 9 times bigger APS-C sensor in a pocket camera to revamp it completely and excite its customers, but (!) Pentax cannot find priorities, ways, reasons, and time and avoid excuses to squeeze in an FF sensor in an already big DSLR to revamp it completely and excite its customers?

Gimme a break!
This is a bit to blunt imo. Revamping the pocket camera doesn't include updating the lens line to go with it, which is obligatory for issueing the Pentax FF DSLR.

But I think we all generally agree that they're taking to long with the latter mentioned camera, whatever their reason or excuses may be. The market is 100% merciless.

Last edited by Clavius; 06-28-2013 at 04:56 AM.
06-28-2013, 06:30 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
This is a bit to blunt imo. Revamping the pocket camera doesn't include updating the lens line to go with it, which is obligatory for issueing the Pentax FF DSLR.

But I think we all generally agree that they're taking to long with the latter mentioned camera, whatever their reason or excuses may be. The market is 100% merciless.
Re lens — yes, it does. New GR lens is specifically made for the new APS-C sensor. The new GR is a totally new camera, with everything new in it and about it. Pentax did a phenomenal job.

But I didn't compare things and matters literally, but rather semantically and philosophically. (I know the literalist way of understanding is the predominant on PF, but lets resist it for a moment).

Loyal Pentax users need as much excitement as Ricoh users — that was my point. But loyal Pentax users will wait for quite a while still.
06-28-2013, 07:03 AM   #105
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Uluru:
So that's it, the "one iota" is a FF DSLR? Then, a significant change can only be world domination...
Maybe you think they should forget about the GR, Q7, rebuilding their APS-C DSLR lineup, about everything and dedicate themselves solely to the making of a FF camera? That would be suicide.

By the way, not even a FF DSLR can be considered something impossible for the "old Pentax". The old Pentax almost succeeded to launch one, it was only the costly sensor which made them change their minds.
And I can see change happening. Not everywhere, nothing dramatic, but Pentax is moving forward.

P.S. It's not Pentax and Ricoh, but Pentax Ricoh now. I doubt Pentax made the GR themselves, but it makes sense to integrate the "Pentax" and "Ricoh" teams, sharing as much as possible.
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